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Old February 15, 2016, 16:48   #11
nikheizen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taptap View Post
"The artefact glaive" - there are three of them
Yup, I meant to say "the *sharp* artefact glaive," but it completely whiffed my mind.
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Old February 16, 2016, 18:13   #12
wobbly
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Found Aeglos on my last run. At 13 melee & +9 from focus, no-assassination & wearing a shield it was still taking down ancient red serpents on the 2nd hit. I assume a decent assassin would be 1 hitting them. It's nothing to be sneezed at.

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Old February 16, 2016, 21:29   #13
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..Maybe I should've mentioned I was running Subtlety/Glamdring in that particular run. Point proven though, I retract Aeglos* being meh in general.

That said - Yes, Spears are good with various slays, my beef is that being situationally good swaps is all they really have to recommend them on light/heavy weapons in general. And access to swaps becomes a luxury as inventory slots become scarce and good allrounders become ubiquitous at lower levels. Polearm Mastery is good to leverage focus, but is contraproductive versus archers/breathers and precludes flanking.

I agree Glaives are pretty cool early on with low-strength characters, but Glaives are not spears.

*Curious how you'd rate it vs a hypothetical doublefine coldbranded Bastard Sword/Battle axe though?
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Old February 16, 2016, 22:26   #14
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I think the issue being brought up here was that polearms are never really appealing as a go-to weapon (glaives for 0 str chars at 100' excepted). Nobody ever finds a double-fine great spear at 600' and decides "That's it, I'm using this". The conversation has been sidetracked by how awesome fixed art polarms are, and yes they are indeed, but so is literally any other good artefact. I remember the tale about a high-str char who found the sharpness dagger, did some quick math, and dropped his two-hander in favour of picking up subtlety and stabbing awake enemies in the face. Fixed-arts are good, we get it.

But spears/glaives? Less good. Basically swords with less flexibility and slightly worse stats. I've kept fine defender longswords as my main weapon at 950' for riposting. I can't think of any vanilla polarms that would be 'good enough' at that depth...
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Old February 16, 2016, 22:45   #15
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Serephina, thanks for pulling attention back to that.

It's more plausible that polearms are systematically weak, but I'm still not sure. We did balance them by looking at numbers, and spears should be some of the best weapons for STR 0-1 characters, and Glaives one of the best 2-handed weapons around STR 0-2. Polearm Mastery does give a strong boost to this.

Now there are a couple of possible issues with our balancing. First, we looked at STR scores around 0-5; with Power and Momentum some players get well above that. Second, we didn't reconsider the balance carefully after introducing Subtlety. But I do think a vanilla Glaive (double fine with defender would be (-1,2d10)[+2]) could be a strong weapon even deep in the dungeon. Plain great spears are unlikely to be top for many people (even then I'm not sure -- a low strength combat character might prefer them), but they get so much stronger with slays that the straight version can't be super-strong.
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Old February 16, 2016, 23:33   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scatha View Post
Serephina, thanks for pulling attention back to that.

It's more plausible that polearms are systematically weak, but I'm still not sure. We did balance them by looking at numbers, and spears should be some of the best weapons for STR 0-1 characters, and Glaives one of the best 2-handed weapons around STR 0-2. Polearm Mastery does give a strong boost to this.
Do many players play with low STR scores? It may be that polearms are targeting a niche audience, in which case it'd be expected that most players don't find them to be generally useful.
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Old February 17, 2016, 00:37   #17
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Thinking about critical hits, I played an early game with a 2lb spear today. They are as easy to make as 1lb shortswords, but you never find them due to throwing weapon streamlining.
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Old February 17, 2016, 01:35   #18
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I use vanilla spears and glaives in the early game all the time, especially with 2strength characters. Glaives in particular are a lot better than most of the other heavy options, with bastard swords sometimes coming out on top (but not very often.)

I find glaives especially good on characters who aren't really melee-focused, and are just trying to bridge an awkward part of the build.

If we're looking for criminally useless items, I'd say the greataxe and most sceptres (even the ego ones) are a more obvious target. War hammers are close, but at least the damage-side fine-boosted ones can be insane if you have one of those strength-heavy characters, and momentum can be used to great effect there (instead of swinging a 12lb greataxe for about the same sides and fewer crits, and way worse to-hit.)
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Old February 17, 2016, 01:37   #19
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Do many players play with low STR scores? It may be that polearms are targeting a niche audience, in which case it'd be expected that most players don't find them to be generally useful.
I think this is true. I'd be much more inclined to play low-strength characters more often if it didn't make inventory management totally awful.

I'd be interested to see how people play Sil if the weight limit was fixed across all characters / decoupled from strength entirely. I can't play 1-strength fencers/stabbers anymore mostly because carrying any swap weapons or armor is incredibly frustrating.
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Old February 17, 2016, 02:25   #20
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I think this is true. I'd be much more inclined to play low-strength characters more often if it didn't make inventory management totally awful.

I'd be interested to see how people play Sil if the weight limit was fixed across all characters / decoupled from strength entirely. I can't play 1-strength fencers/stabbers anymore mostly because carrying any swap weapons or armor is incredibly frustrating.
I'd be hugely in favor of this. I mostly play Str 3 elves, for whom weight is only occasionally an issue (and never an issue once I get my first strength increase around 700' or so). The game would be a bit more interesting/challenging for me if I had some hard choices that fell short of incredibly frustrating. Maybe if the limit were between Str 2 and 3?

(This would also invite an ability--presumably in the Will tree?--that would let you carry more.)
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