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Old December 14, 2016, 20:50   #11
taptap
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
Focus is the only pre-req for concentration so at a guess it's picking up a few user made notes?
mpa-sil has changed dependencies afaik.
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Old December 14, 2016, 22:22   #12
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I'm not sure if Slaying SHOULD be nerfed. The thing is that popping a Song of Slaying and destroying everything is both really fun, and not totally braindead (allowing yourself to be surrounded by monsters to make your song of slaying strong is a risk, after all). In a way, it reminds me of the popularity of going Trog in DCSS.

I'd advocate more for buffing the other songs.

Also, consider if the other songs even need buffing - this isn't a list of 'best skills', this is a list of 'most commonly taken skills', and melee/evasion killdudes are not only simpler to build and run more often, but tend to be chosen for Morgoth killers too.

Still, it seems like Este at least could look at being buffed, if not also Staying/Mastery/Lorien. (Strength in Adversity and Throwing Mastery too.)
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Old December 14, 2016, 22:52   #13
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Strength in Adversity makes you more powerful at a time when your two options are heal and run away, and doesn't help with either. Its theme is Tolkienian, but consider that the heroes who would take it are the sort that die in a field full of dead orcs and a balrog or two, but not the ones who die peacefully in their sleep.

Throwing Mastery would probably become okay if it let you stuff throwing weapons in your quiver. Though even then, melee abilities are super expensive. Anyone who is going for melee to the degree that throwing mastery is better than unskilled bows will want around 7 skills or so. The 8th skill costs 4000 XP. That's about two levels of Melee, or even more in other skills, likely.
Put another way, for any decent investment in Melee, Throwing Mastery is probably about as expensive as Opportunist, which is better IMO. Opportunist also gets you close to Exchange Places, which is excellent.
Dunno how to buff Mastery, it feels like a skill not really worth going for unless you can waste at least 30% of someone's time, Lorien already has a purpose which I gather it serves decently well, Staying could possibly be buffed by giving it more dice, and Este might well be better than we give it credit. I'm not convinced it should be a thing you sing during a fight, I think it should serve post-battle and mid-battle regen (jump to the other side of a chasm, regen, jump back). Extra incentives to disengage for a bit are good in my book.
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Old December 15, 2016, 05:00   #14
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Este is good, you see it when you find it on the artifact, it's just expensive & hard to get. Maybe ok if you're a doriath? The most obvious is fighting anything that uses poison. What's less obvious & I just noticed on my last run is it also cures fear. Makes it a great to have when dealing with horrors. Presumably good for dealing with silent watchers too. Handy for archers that are shooting at the bigger dragons too maybe?

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Old December 15, 2016, 06:51   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taptap View Post
mpa-sil has changed dependencies afaik.
I'm pretty sure that was reverted in 1.3.0.
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Old December 15, 2016, 08:40   #16
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Song of Mastery is insane, but building to that point is the hard bit. Once you get enough points in song there is nothing that can touch you (see this melee character with [+17,1-1] armour as an extreme example). It really doesn't need buffing. Lorien is similar.
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Old December 15, 2016, 19:07   #17
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Originally Posted by Philip View Post
Throwing Mastery would probably become okay if it let you stuff throwing weapons in your quiver. Though even then, melee abilities are super expensive. Anyone who is going for melee to the degree that throwing mastery is better than unskilled bows will want around 7 skills or so. The 8th skill costs 4000 XP. That's about two levels of Melee, or even more in other skills, likely.
Put another way, for any decent investment in Melee, Throwing Mastery is probably about as expensive as Opportunist, which is better IMO. Opportunist also gets you close to Exchange Places, which is excellent.
Put a third way, elves can get Archery 10, Flaming Arrows, and Dexterity for 6k xp. By late game that Dexterity is worth 3-4k in itself, since it's essentially a point of Melee and Evasion (and I guess Stealth), so you're effectively paying 2k or so for a ranged option.
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Old December 15, 2016, 19:12   #18
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Oh yeah. Throwing Mastery is probably doomed then really.
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Old December 15, 2016, 23:57   #19
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The thing with the songs is, if you are playing a melee character, chances are you want to get Song of Slaying for Morgoth. Song of Sharpness with Woven Themes is good if you want insurance on being able to kill him, and Sharpness also makes serpents vastly less annoying. Most characters will also need Song of the Trees by shadow spider depth to avoid dying to them. So if you want to kill Morgoth, which you do because the ascension is very unfun when he is not dead, you already have 4 song abilities pretty much fixed, which leaves some of the other songs like Este, Staying, etc. in a place where they are simply too expensive to be worth the XP, but are cool when found on artefacts.
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Old January 5, 2017, 01:10   #20
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protopulse on the /r/roguelikes discord brings up a good point - why do so many winners take Leaping? (42 wins out of 208 total)
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