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Old November 16, 2017, 10:12   #71
wobbly
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Got this uploading my character dump:

Code:
reading chardump, please wait...
error: unknown variant! Name Nelvatyn Age 1,292 Str 2 = 0 +2
webmaster was notified
error: unknown variant! Sex Male Height 6'1 Dex 5 = 4 +1
webmaster was notified
error: unknown variant! Race Sindar Weight 170 Con 7 = 4 +3
webmaster was notified
error: unknown variant! House Doriath Gra 6 = 4 +2
webmaster was notified
error: unknown variant! Game Turn 8,975 Melee (+6,1d4) Melee 6 = 1 +5
webmaster was notified
error: unknown variant! Exp Pool 649 Bows (+6,0d0) Archery 6 = 0 +5 +1
webmaster was notified
error: unknown variant! Total Exp 43,949 Armor [+12,3-7] Evasion 12 = 5 +5 +2
webmaster was notified
error: unknown variant! Burden 66.1 Stealth 13 = 10 +5 -2
webmaster was notified
error: unknown variant! Max Burden 144.0 Health -9:71 Perception 16 = 10 +6
webmaster was notified
error: unknown variant! Depth 1000' Voice 27:59 Will 9 = 3 +6
webmaster was notified
error: unknown variant! Min Depth 1000' Song Lorien Smithing 6 = 0 +6
webmaster was notified
error: unknown variant! Light Radius 2 Silence Song 23 = 16 +6 +1
webmaster was notified
error: unknown variant! You are one of two children of a Sindar bard. You have light grey
webmaster was notified
error: unknown variant! eyes, straight black hair, and a fair complexion.
webmaster was notified
Not sure what you changed to the crown requirements, as I had 3 str+power & one of the black blades wielded 2-handed & still couldn't break it. Also not so sure about being able to smash the blade on the 1st sil, this kinda means sneakers have to muck around with moving the crown or moving Morgoth to be viable.

Oh, character dump here:
http://angband.live/wobbly/silq/Nelvatyn.txt
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Old November 16, 2017, 12:08   #72
Quirk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
Got this uploading my character dump:

Code:
reading chardump, please wait...
error: unknown variant! Name Nelvatyn Age 1,292 Str 2 = 0 +2
webmaster was notified
error: unknown variant! Sex Male Height 6'1 Dex 5 = 4 +1
webmaster was notified
error: unknown variant! Race Sindar Weight 170 Con 7 = 4 +3
webmaster was notified
error: unknown variant! House Doriath Gra 6 = 4 +2
webmaster was notified
error: unknown variant! Game Turn 8,975 Melee (+6,1d4) Melee 6 = 1 +5
webmaster was notified
error: unknown variant! Exp Pool 649 Bows (+6,0d0) Archery 6 = 0 +5 +1
webmaster was notified
error: unknown variant! Total Exp 43,949 Armor [+12,3-7] Evasion 12 = 5 +5 +2
webmaster was notified
error: unknown variant! Burden 66.1 Stealth 13 = 10 +5 -2
webmaster was notified
error: unknown variant! Max Burden 144.0 Health -9:71 Perception 16 = 10 +6
webmaster was notified
error: unknown variant! Depth 1000' Voice 27:59 Will 9 = 3 +6
webmaster was notified
error: unknown variant! Min Depth 1000' Song Lorien Smithing 6 = 0 +6
webmaster was notified
error: unknown variant! Light Radius 2 Silence Song 23 = 16 +6 +1
webmaster was notified
error: unknown variant! You are one of two children of a Sindar bard. You have light grey
webmaster was notified
error: unknown variant! eyes, straight black hair, and a fair complexion.
webmaster was notified
Not sure what you changed to the crown requirements, as I had 3 str+power & one of the black blades wielded 2-handed & still couldn't break it. Also not so sure about being able to smash the blade on the 1st sil, this kinda means sneakers have to muck around with moving the crown or moving Morgoth to be viable.

Oh, character dump here:
http://angband.live/wobbly/silq/Nelvatyn.txt
Think the upload issue was angband.live not supporting the variant fully yet.

Something like 3d9 with sharpness should be enough to break off a Sil but will require a little luck if you're not rolling crits - might take a while. I hadn't considered pacifists angering Morgoth on the first Sil; will patch that for the next release.

Three prerequisite possibilities is a bit unwieldy; maybe should drop the prereq altogether?
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Old November 17, 2017, 21:31   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikheizen View Post
I think that getting a powerful boost against fleeing enemies is fine, but it's too cheap to acquire for elves.
Hmm. How would you feel about keeping it as the bottom of the skill tree but making it +3?
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Old November 18, 2017, 08:50   #74
wobbly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirk View Post
Think the upload issue was angband.live not supporting the variant fully yet.

Something like 3d9 with sharpness should be enough to break off a Sil but will require a little luck if you're not rolling crits - might take a while. I hadn't considered pacifists angering Morgoth on the first Sil; will patch that for the next release.

Three prerequisite possibilities is a bit unwieldy; maybe should drop the prereq altogether?
Yeah just drop the prereqs maybe. It looks like a very niche ability anyway, I don't think you want to enforce it to a strict build when it's likely to be a rare pick anyway.
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Old November 23, 2017, 19:25   #75
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So having played a bunch of this over the last week, I have a few comments.
  • New forging stuff turns out to be great. Definitely a win over vanilla. I wish there were a way to bring up the guaranteed forges in-game though. Maybe a message as you enter guaranteed depths like "You hear the echoes of a hammer clanging on steel."
  • Smithing did remind me how absolutely much I loathe traps in Sil. The only traps I actually like are Webs and Roosts, since they are the only remotely dangerous ones. Everything else is a joke, or an immense annoyance (false floors on a smithing character are just bad gamefeel). Have you considered deleting them/reworking the traps which are in-game?
  • Really don't like the new Silcutting mechanics. After actually going through the source code I think that they are too hard to explain to the player concisely in-game. They remind me a lot of nethack, a game where most things are fun and interesting exactly once. I kinda see what you were going for, but I am not a fan.
  • Removal of deathblades is a huge blow for Subtlety as an ability/build (which was already not too strong). They probably need a replacement high-end 1dx weapon like how bows have dragon-horn. Possibly flavour them as dragon fangs or meteoric steel blades?
  • I brought this up on github, but untying consumables/staves/horns from depth and just making them roll on a rarity table when trying to create items of that type would reduce spoileriness (i.e. you know this stack of 5 pots early is probably antidote).
  • New orc duo is cute. Happy to see that Lug has gone down another notch since last I played.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirk View Post
Hmm. How would you feel about keeping it as the bottom of the skill tree but making it +3?
I like that it's a big boost, my main qualm is that it's too easy to get, but that could work too.

You should email pav and ask him to set up a ladder for Q if you plan on continuing.

Last edited by nikheizen; November 23, 2017 at 21:23.
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Old November 24, 2017, 05:55   #76
wobbly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikheizen View Post
So having played a bunch of this over the last week, I have a few comments.[LIST]
[*]Smithing did remind me how absolutely much I loathe traps in Sil. The only traps I actually like are Webs and Roosts, since they are the only remotely dangerous ones. Everything else is a joke, or an immense annoyance (false floors on a smithing character are just bad gamefeel). Have you considered deleting them/reworking the traps which are in-game?
Some of them like alarms, pits, locked doors fill a need for pure sneakers to get some perception other then throwing everything in to stealth. Not that I'm against reworking traps, just make sure they fill that niche which is probably the main one where traps are important.
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Old November 24, 2017, 08:11   #77
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Tried forewarned & it has a strange cut off point. I took an extra pt of evasion without thinking & ended up losing 2 evasion instead till I could get more perception
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Old November 24, 2017, 09:52   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikheizen View Post
[*]New forging stuff turns out to be great. Definitely a win over vanilla. I wish there were a way to bring up the guaranteed forges in-game though. Maybe a message as you enter guaranteed depths like "You hear the echoes of a hammer clanging on steel."
Great to hear it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikheizen View Post
[*]Smithing did remind me how absolutely much I loathe traps in Sil. The only traps I actually like are Webs and Roosts, since they are the only remotely dangerous ones. Everything else is a joke, or an immense annoyance (false floors on a smithing character are just bad gamefeel). Have you considered deleting them/reworking the traps which are in-game?
I am also dissatisfied with them at present. Longer-term I want to have dangerous/trapped areas which require caution to move through, plus possibly putting alarms/caltrops etc round barracks and armories. Shorter-term I have made them a lot easier to spot, made the nastiest ones easier to disarm and made it possible to leap over them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikheizen View Post
[*]Really don't like the new Silcutting mechanics. After actually going through the source code I think that they are too hard to explain to the player concisely in-game. They remind me a lot of nethack, a game where most things are fun and interesting exactly once. I kinda see what you were going for, but I am not a fan.
I take your point, but I am also not a fan of the original mechanics, which rely greatly on being able to brutalise the crown with some kind of Sharpness. I would be very much willing to listen to alternatives if you have better ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikheizen View Post
[*]Removal of deathblades is a huge blow for Subtlety as an ability/build (which was already not too strong). They probably need a replacement high-end 1dx weapon like how bows have dragon-horn. Possibly flavour them as dragon fangs or meteoric steel blades?
Subtlety is only really strong with daggers and shortswords, which are both quite weak. Bringing down the crit requirement by another 1 is probably not actually broken, having run the maths; it does make Subtlety stronger than before, but you need to be consistently beating enemy evasion by 11-12 to score better average damage than a good two-handed battleaxe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikheizen View Post
[*]I brought this up on github, but untying consumables/staves/horns from depth and just making them roll on a rarity table when trying to create items of that type would reduce spoileriness (i.e. you know this stack of 5 pots early is probably antidote).
This is true, but will presumably make valuable potions harder to acquire later. I'll have to think about this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikheizen View Post
[*]New orc duo is cute. Happy to see that Lug has gone down another notch since last I played.[/LIST]
Yeah, Lug went from "hah, new orc unique is weak, he can't deal damage with that shortsword" to "Lug scares me" when I pumped him a little and added Cruel Blow. He's gradually reducing to a more manageable monster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikheizen View Post
I like that it's a big boost, my main qualm is that it's too easy to get, but that could work too.
Finding skills for the lowest point on the tree is a little difficult, but done well in most of the other branches (Channeling apart, which isn't really an early game skill). Something needs to be first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikheizen View Post
You should email pav and ask him to set up a ladder for Q if you plan on continuing.
Good idea, definitely needed if I'm going to plunge ahead into more substantial redesign.

Last edited by Quirk; November 24, 2017 at 14:36.
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Old November 24, 2017, 09:53   #79
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Tried forewarned & it has a strange cut off point. I took an extra pt of evasion without thinking & ended up losing 2 evasion instead till I could get more perception
This is a hazard of a skill that wants you to keep your perception ahead of your evasion. Is the bonus about right, or a little stingy?
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Old November 25, 2017, 01:24   #80
HugoTheGreat2011
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Wrt Forewarned, it should give a bonus or no bonus, but NOT penalize the player's Evasion. (I hope that's the way it works.)
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Hugo = usually plays Halo, PosChengband and its Forks, and Sil

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