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Old February 17, 2011, 17:21   #41
Rizwan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzkill View Post
Veterans have experience to guide them in equipment choices. Noobs don't, nor should they. Should we change the game to make up for this lack of experience? No. I think that perhaps the push to make Angband more noob-friendly has been confused with make Angband more noob-winnable. If accomplishing no. 1 results in no. 2, then I think it's a failure. The fact that Angband is near impossible to beat (once upon a time) is what makes it worth playing.

No one forces anyone to view spoilers, nor is it necessary to do so. A minimally educated/experienced player can make logical decision about which equipment to keep and which to toss and be right 90% of the time. It may take more the half a dozen games (or many more than that) to learn the nuances of deep artifacts and rare resists, but that's all part of the fun.

I'm not opposed to unlimited home being a 'cheat option' or a 'no stores option', but I don't think the dev team is much interested in adding more options. I don't see the need for a quiver in the status-quo home, not that I haven't wished for one on occasion (pre-quiver). IMO, if you're stockpiling so much ammo that it won't fit in one or two inventory quiver slots, then you're probably way to focused on archery.
Should we change the game to make up for experience then? Is the future angband then going to be Artifactless-Shopless-Homeless-Bookless-Ironman-band? That would certainly make it worth playing, right?

I think the debate should not be whether Angband should be easier or more difficult to win, but rather IF being noob friendly means that Angband is noob winnable THEN would that diminish the enjoyment one gets out of it? Consider that people who have played it for decades and have won it numerous times, timo et al, have devised various self imposed limitations (no options required) to the game to challenge themselves. Are they bored with the game? I dont know. Only they can tell us if now, after all of the various limitations that they have gone through do they find that the game no longer holds any appeal to them. The main thing is that they have that choice of how challenging they want the game to be.

If they feel that this would lessen the enjoyment of the game for ALL players then Artifactless-Shopless-Homeless-Bookless-Ironman-band here we come.
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Old February 17, 2011, 17:23   #42
fph
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Sometimes I think that the best way to go would be having three different difficulty levels, easy-normal-hard, to make the game more noob-friendly but at the same time remind them that "ok, you won, but what you won is not the real game". A tentative list of features for the three levels would be:
  • easy level: unlimited home, infinite supply of basic items in stores, full monster memory, can cheat death once every game ( la ToME's "blood of life"), HP and SP increased by 20 or 30% or some free resistance
  • medium level: more or less what we have now. Maybe disconnected stairs?
  • hard level: like the current ironman.
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Old February 17, 2011, 17:44   #43
PowerDiver
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
As for the quiver, I'll reiterate my stance that the quiver should not expand your inventory space, but merely make small stacks of ammo usable. Allowing each quiver slot to hold 99 units of ammo is too much; it should be more around 40.
If we are reiterating, I'd go along with that if the number of everything that fits in a slot, not just the quiver, was reduced the same way. Saying 99 arrows fits in one slot but put into the quiver takes multiple slots is a mess. Then the question includes e.g. how many ?phase do you want a warrior to be able to carry in a single slot. http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=3524
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Old February 17, 2011, 17:55   #44
Derakon
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Sure, why not? Then the only thing the quiver does that's special is let multiple different types of objects occupy a single slot.
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Old February 17, 2011, 18:20   #45
pampl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fph View Post
Sometimes I think that the best way to go would be having three different difficulty levels, easy-normal-hard, to make the game more noob-friendly but at the same time remind them that "ok, you won, but what you won is not the real game". A tentative list of features for the three levels would be:
  • easy level: unlimited home, infinite supply of basic items in stores, full monster memory, can cheat death once every game ( la ToME's "blood of life"), HP and SP increased by 20 or 30% or some free resistance
  • medium level: more or less what we have now. Maybe disconnected stairs?
  • hard level: like the current ironman.
I like this on paper, but when I first tried ToME 4 something about choosing a difficulty setting at the beginning bugged me. I can't put my finger on what though.
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Old February 17, 2011, 18:41   #46
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I like this on paper, but when I first tried ToME 4 something about choosing a difficulty setting at the beginning bugged me. I can't put my finger on what though.
I'd guess it has something to do with not wanting to feel like the computer has to go easy on you for you to be able to play the game. There's also an expectation that roguelikes be hard, so having an easy mode for one seems weird.

Generally I'd say that newbies should be trying in each game to make it further than they did in the previous game. It's fully expected that they lose several characters that make it past 3000' (past which point most of us would be assuming we had a win-capable character). Making it more likely that a newbie can win without so many deaths would remove a few instances of "WTF?! How is that fair?!" but would also greatly reduce the joy of your first victory, so I have to say I'm against it.
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Old February 17, 2011, 19:31   #47
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Imho difficulty settings are bad. Noob-firendly is actually "interesting for a newbie", not easy. Even game, that is absolutely impossible to win can be noob-friendly.

Last edited by LostTemplar; February 17, 2011 at 19:54.
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Old February 23, 2011, 03:40   #48
Hariolor
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tangental thought reading through recent posts on this topic...

how about a moderately rare ?recall_item that summons an item of the player's choice from home to the floor next to them.

to make it fair I think you have to pull the whole stack if it's a pile of consumables.

I'd guess at the rarity being somewhere around the same as ?*acquirement*, but it starts showing up much earlier. DL10 maybe?

This doesn't expand the size of the home itself, but having one of these effectively increases the size of the backpack by the size of the home.

on second thought, maybe this doesn't help as much as I thought. but it would give newer players easier access to the home without having to ?recall all the time.
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Old February 23, 2011, 11:48   #49
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guess i'm pretty close to what could be called a noob (though i have to admit that i generally enjoy hard games) and i have to say that i wouldn't enjoy unlimited home even though it would probably improve my chances of achieving something...
i've thrown some useful stuff away in all my games until now (in my current one this would mainly be ?*destruction* and ?mass banishment), but for me this is part of the fun. i guess angband is a somewhat masochistic experience anyway (at least in the beginning) and the realization that you've dumped something important is just a small version of the usual "agh, smaug obviously isn't much like the average baby dragon - what a nice new piece of information in exchange for 20 hours of playing".

it honestly makes me feel good when i realize that something i've stored at home is useless or that it was a bad choice to dump something else. it makes you realize that you've taken one more tiny step towards becoming good at angband.
to me it's a big part of angband's appeal that you're forced to decide "is this necessary or isn't it? considering the way i play angband, will i need it later?"

of course this is only the way i see it, but to me angband would lose quite a bit of its charm if space at home was unlimited...
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