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Old February 27, 2011, 01:34   #11
Pete Mack
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Hey wait a minute... 7 damage per throw is exactly what oil was when it started out 3 years back, at 2d6. So what's the point of the branding change in the first place? (I think it should do a little more damage than an unenchanted longbow--as you say, oil is a one shot ammo. I think it's a nice touch that it remains useful until you find your first bow in the dungeon.)
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Old February 27, 2011, 02:19   #12
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So what's the point of the branding change in the first place?
Someone got a new toy, the ability to put branding in new places, and went crazy with it. It makes sense to change from 2d6 to 1d4 * 3 so that fire-based creatures take less damage AFAIAC.

IMO an unenchanted longbow should be more lethal than thrown oil, but that's not important to me. I see the oil vs longbow as being about whether you can afford the longbow. For a starting char, even a price of 150 on a longbow might put it out of reach, so you spend your last 40 AU on 10 oil. If you want the oil to do more, it really ought to have a max range of 2 or 3, and I'd prefer 2.

As for the shortbow vs longbow distinction, i.e. why would anyone ever use a shortbow, I have 2 ideas. It would not bother me if there was a minimum height to use a longbow, and e.g. hobbits and dwarves simply could not use a longbow under any circumstances. Also, str is a primary attribute for longbows. Only Odysseus could use his bow, because others were not strong enough to use it. At the moment, I am thinking about requiring str >= (might + 1)^2, so you would need 18/180 str to use an x5 launcher and x6 would be impossible. That's one way to stop weak mages from using heavy xbows as their primary damage source. As to the exact numbers, who knows, and things are further confused by my belief that the correct way to interpret stats is to divide by two before considering them in a D&D framework, and I'm sure plenty of players will disagree with that viewpoint.
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Old February 27, 2011, 03:00   #13
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"Realistically", crossbows would come with winches to reload them which could be used even by weak characters, but would slow reloading down. Longbows as you say would require high strength to use. But I'm not convinced that moving to such a change would be good gameplay. Best I'd consider would be having a damage/accuracy penalty for not being strong enough, much like there's the "just lifting" mode for when you're too weak to lift your melee weapon.
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Old February 27, 2011, 05:29   #14
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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
As to the exact numbers, who knows, and things are further confused by my belief that the correct way to interpret stats is to divide by two before considering them in a D&D framework, and I'm sure plenty of players will disagree with that viewpoint.
I'm not sure it's a matter of disagreement so much as it being factually incorrect. It's impossible to start with stats high enough to be a ranger or paladin under that system, and other characters would be lucky to start with a 10 or 11 in their prime requisite, something which never happens in D&D. It would also mean girdles of giant strength are more powerful than any artifact in Angband

If there were a D&D campaign that let the player wear near a dozen artifacts and kill a god and a demi-god, then I wouldn't be surprised that it had to keep track of attributes going up to 40
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Old February 27, 2011, 06:45   #15
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I'm not sure it's a matter of disagreement so much as it being factually incorrect.
A D&D mage with an int of 18 is happy. An angband mage with an int of 18 is a dunce.
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Old February 27, 2011, 07:32   #16
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A D&D mage with an int of 18 is happy. An angband mage with an int of 18 is a dunce.
Was Angband always like this, or did stats become inflated along with everything else?
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Old February 27, 2011, 16:18   #17
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Always like this. High-elf and gnome mages have always had a significant advantage over their peers because they can start with 18/50 INT, which gets them extra mana.

Frankly, given that the ultimate goal of the game is to kill a god, I have no problem with our heroes being superhuman, even at the start of the game. Just assume that the setting is sometime like the Greek golden age, when heroes were thick on the ground.
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Old February 28, 2011, 00:07   #18
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Thanks for the info, guys. I am indeed playing 3.2 and wasn't aware of some of the changes. I'll definitely put some of that oil to use. I also didn't realize how weak the short bow is. Looks like I should just sell the thing.
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Old February 28, 2011, 00:39   #19
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Thanks for the info, guys. I am indeed playing 3.2 and wasn't aware of some of the changes. I'll definitely put some of that oil to use. I also didn't realize how weak the short bow is. Looks like I should just sell the thing.
Keep in mind that if you find arrows +3/+3 your bow suddenly starts looking a lot better. I'd probably hang onto it but just upgrade as soon as I could.
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Old February 28, 2011, 18:13   #20
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If there were a D&D campaign that let the player wear near a dozen artifacts and kill a god and a demi-god, then I wouldn't be surprised that it had to keep track of attributes going up to 40
In old D&D...no. In 3rd edition, 40's possible for 1 ability score.

It's also not fair to say "divide an Angband stat by 2 to get a D&D score." Nope, not close in any edition. For scores up to 18, the scores are actually roughly comparable...quite comparable for 3rd Ed D&D. And even at the high end...a 3rd Ed D&D 40 means a helluva lot.

A big difference is that D&D uses spell slots for standard casters, NOT mana. But there's no way to roll up low-level, low-power spell slots to get something actually usable, so when you can cast high-powered spells, those low-powered slots are fundamentally meaningless. In Angband, the situation is akin to when you get Raal's...all the damage spells in the basic spellbooks pretty much stop being used. BUT, since you have a mana pool, the "mana resources" that powered them, are completely "converted" to powering the better spells. 3rd Ed D&D psionics DOES use mana, so a 40 Int psion DOES get a massive boost, like the Angband character.
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