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Old January 5, 2018, 02:07   #81
wobbly
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The major problems with banish exist in scroll form too. If you were going to do something about them I'd look at them in general rather then removing it from mages. Look at the Morgoth fight for instance. Morgoth summons. You send all of Morgoths summons away. Now it's just damage/round+healing consumables. Not a huge amount of room for tactical play.
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Old January 5, 2018, 02:39   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
The major problems with banish exist in scroll form too. If you were going to do something about them I'd look at them in general rather then removing it from mages. Look at the Morgoth fight for instance. Morgoth summons. You send all of Morgoths summons away. Now it's just damage/round+healing consumables. Not a huge amount of room for tactical play.
As long as your resources are sufficiently constrained that you can't do this frequently, there's still decision-making in terms of what amount/kind of summons you're willing to tolerate before you hit the nuke button. And speaking of nukes, Destruction is just as bad as banishment on that front, when talking about the final fight at least. It's less useful for clearing vaults of course, but it's entirely feasible to just clip a few tiles of a vault with Destruction, clearing out the worst enemies (if you're able to lure them to the edge) and coincidentally creating some LOS obstructions.
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Old January 5, 2018, 08:27   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
Morgoth summons. You send all of Morgoths summons away.
You use your turn. Morgoth acts again.

No the real problem with banishment is that as a spell it has unlimited uses, so you can use that to clear all vaults without trouble, as other classes that don't have access to it must burn a precious consumable item for that.

My idea: just turn the spell into a "mass teleport away" effect, just like priest's Banish Evil does. And leave the scrolls/staves as they are now.
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Old January 5, 2018, 09:55   #84
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I'm dubious about these changes. I was expecting something more radical, which would break all the spells into distinct realms and attach those realms to actual classes... a bit like what I did for the Elementalist class in PWMAngband (fire magic, earth magic, air magic... and a spell tome for each). Clearly I don't think using arcane/nature/holy/necromancy is enough, there are many spells that don't fit in that scheme. So at this point I see two paths:

- path 1: reorganize current spells in atomic realms (fire, ice, mana, divination, death, time, healing...), assign one or more realms to classes, one spellbook per spell (available in shops), one tome per realm containing all the spells for that realm (findable in the dungeon)

This is more or less the path taken by ToME/TomeNET (minus the skill system, with a multiplier on each realm for each class which tells how much a class is attuned to that realm).

- path 2: trash current spells, create arcane/nature/holy/necromancy realms, rethink new spells for these realms, make one class per realm

Then you would have:

the melee class (or "6bpr" class)

- Warrior -- pure melee

the spellcasters (or "4bpr" classes)

- Mage -- pure arcane spellcaster
- Druid -- pure nature spellcaster
- Priest -- pure holy spellcaster
- Necromancer -- pure necromancy spellcaster

the hybrid classes (or "5bpr" classes)

- Ranger -- melee + ranged + some nature spells (sub-realm: tracking)
- Paladin -- melee + some holy spells (sub-realm: blessings?)
- Rogue -- melee + stealth + some necromancy spells (sub-realm: shadow)
- Warlock (?) -- melee + some arcane spells (sub-realm: battle magic?)

The easier route is probably the first one, and that's the one which would make life easier for variants with many spellcasting realms (and many corresponding classes). The second choice would be more thematic and would open the road to new base classes, but would also require more thinking/balancing with the new realms/spells.
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Old January 5, 2018, 10:38   #85
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If you keep the staff effect of Banishment the same but take away the spell from Mages, you do make them burn a slot on it and make it slightly less reliable, but you've done nothing to limit its abuse around vaults, since Mages have Recharge as a spell. There is a trivial way to make Banishment less effective to clear vaults, which is to protect vault tiles from Banish/Destruct.

Note that if Druids were given old slow/confuse etc. then they would be mostly useless against uniques, and since a lot of uniques really kind of have to be killed, like Sauron and Morgoth, that would make them quite aggravating to play.

Old slow/confuse was balanced well enough for the depths where you would find the wand or have just gained the spell - a cheap way to run away from some monsters or get a tactical advantage, at a point where the cost of failure was relatively minor. Unfortunately, the value of one turn goes up as the game goes on, and the value of predictable behavior does too. I can't really comment on new status effects though.
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Old January 5, 2018, 11:40   #86
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goal of the upcoming changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
I'm dubious about these changes. I was expecting something more radical, which would break all the spells into distinct realms and attach those realms to actual classes... a bit like what I did for the Elementalist class in PWMAngband (fire magic, earth magic, air magic... and a spell tome for each). Clearly I don't think using arcane/nature/holy/necromancy is enough, there are many spells that don't fit in that scheme. So at this point I see two paths:

- path 1: reorganize current spells in atomic realms (fire, ice, mana, divination, death, time, healing...), assign one or more realms to classes, one spellbook per spell (available in shops), one tome per realm containing all the spells for that realm (findable in the dungeon)

This is more or less the path taken by ToME/TomeNET (minus the skill system, with a multiplier on each realm for each class which tells how much a class is attuned to that realm).

- path 2: trash current spells, create arcane/nature/holy/necromancy realms, rethink new spells for these realms, make one class per realm

Then you would have:

the melee class (or "6bpr" class)

- Warrior -- pure melee

the spellcasters (or "4bpr" classes)

- Mage -- pure arcane spellcaster
- Druid -- pure nature spellcaster
- Priest -- pure holy spellcaster
- Necromancer -- pure necromancy spellcaster

the hybrid classes (or "5bpr" classes)

- Ranger -- melee + ranged + some nature spells (sub-realm: tracking)
- Paladin -- melee + some holy spells (sub-realm: blessings?)
- Rogue -- melee + stealth + some necromancy spells (sub-realm: shadow)
- Warlock (?) -- melee + some arcane spells (sub-realm: battle magic?)

The easier route is probably the first one, and that's the one which would make life easier for variants with many spellcasting realms (and many corresponding classes). The second choice would be more thematic and would open the road to new base classes, but would also require more thinking/balancing with the new realms/spells.
I don't know what you refer to with the term sub-realms. We just have 4 magic realms: arcane, nature, holy & death. Pure caster have all spells, the hybrid classes will have a selection of the available spell of their main class.

Anyway, i think this kind of discussion is useless.
1. Define the goals
2. Think about which steps bring the game closer to the defined goals.

Currently we are discussing changes, and there will always be pros and cons.
The only usefull way i see if you do not define goals is to suggest changes and just collect the number of people who like or dislike them. And follow the route the majority likes.

My personal taste is clearly option 2. And i think we already had a good start with the earlier posts. You re-open the discussion about topics which seemed already agreed on to me.

To my understanding currently the spell list for the arcane (mage) realm is under discussion. Since Nick is the game maintainer currently i think he must declare what route he wants to go and everyone else gives input on how to shape out this way.

Last edited by Tibarius; January 5, 2018 at 11:48.
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Old January 5, 2018, 22:14   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerWyrm View Post
- path 1: reorganize current spells in atomic realms (fire, ice, mana, divination, death, time, healing...), assign one or more realms to classes, one spellbook per spell (available in shops), one tome per realm containing all the spells for that realm (findable in the dungeon)

- path 2: trash current spells, create arcane/nature/holy/necromancy realms, rethink new spells for these realms, make one class per realm

The easier route is probably the first one, and that's the one which would make life easier for variants with many spellcasting realms (and many corresponding classes). The second choice would be more thematic and would open the road to new base classes, but would also require more thinking/balancing with the new realms/spells.
In terms of adding realms and re-arranging spells and books, both paths can be done almost entirely in data files. I have chosen path 2, you would have chosen path 1, and there are numerous other paths

More interesting is when some of the new realms require new effects or other game mechanics, which adds to the design space accessible from the data files. This has happened in a small way with the new mages (Dimension Door), and is coming in a bigger way with druids and especially necromancers; it's possible even with some hybrid classes (rogues and paladins, for example).

I am finding this thread very helpful in expanding and refining my ideas
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Old January 6, 2018, 00:07   #88
Tibarius
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input from the maintainer requested

Nick, could you please comment the latest list.

a) 6 books, 30 spells => ok?
b) is it ok to leave banishment and mass banishment out?
=> if not, then i guess mass banishment replaces globe of protection in #6
and banishment replaces explosion in #5
c) the name for the mage hybrid class is not fixed yet it seems, while the others seem to be agreed on:
Warlock, Battlemage, other title? Warlock sounds pretty cool tho
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Old January 6, 2018, 01:02   #89
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> In terms of adding realms and re-arranging spells and books, both paths can be done almost entirely in data files.

Can you show here a snippet from one of these data files?

A.
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Old January 6, 2018, 03:07   #90
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If you have any recent V, you are looking at class.txt in the game data

eg, the first spell in the first book for the new mage

Code:
book:magic book:town:[Detection and Escape]:7:arcane
book-graphics:?:R
book-properties:25:40:1 to 100
equip:magic book:[Detection and Escape]:1:1

spell:Find Traps, Doors & Stairs:1:1:20:2
effect:DETECT_TRAPS
dice:22d40
effect:DETECT_DOORS
dice:22d40
effect:DETECT_STAIRS
dice:22d40
desc:Detects all traps, doors, and stairs in the immediate area.
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