Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Thread Tools Display Modes
Old October 15, 2019, 01:09   #1
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Saratoga, California (in the midst of Silicon Valley)
Posts: 490
bron is on a distinguished road
Suggested new character class

The current "gnome mage" competition has pointed out that the existing "Recharge" and "Tap Magical Energy" mage spells are probably too powerful, but also greatly alter the playstyle of a mage, since a shot from a Frost Bolt wand is actually more powerful than casting the Frost Bolt spell (due to the "device skill" bump-up). I find this undesirable since it converts the mage into a device user, rather than have the mage rely on its own innate magic. However, using devices is an interesting playstyle. So I propose the creation of a new class, say "Artificer", or "Gadgeteer", or "Tinkerer", or something, which specializes in using devices, both magical and mundane. The exact parameters of what such a class can and cannot do is of course open for debate/discussion - I won't bore people with my personal feelings in that regard. But I think the general idea of such a class would be interesting and fun, and worth considering.

Part of this would be to nerf the existing Mage interactions with devices. "Tap" should have a high chance (100% ?) of destroying the device. "Recharge" should perhaps be taken away from Mages entirely (scrolls only), or have a high chance of destroying the device, or perhaps go the "fragile" route used by Remove Curse - the first one is free, but after that, it's risky.

Anyway, wanted to toss this out and see what others think.
bron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15, 2019, 01:36   #2
DrWho42's Avatar
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Indio, California, United States
Posts: 109
DrWho42 is on a distinguished road
i'm intrigued? i used to play as an investigator-class gnome in D&D
avatar by chuckdrawsthings. thanks chuck!

FishCenter Live on the Adult Swim Streams Weekdays at 8 PM GMT

DrWho42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15, 2019, 02:19   #3
Derakon's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,005
Derakon is on a distinguished road
I've always liked that mages can't just rely on spells for the entirety of the game. It encourages them to think of alternate solutions to their problems. Devices shouldn't always overshadow spells, but I'm absolutely fine with them being the preferred solution for some subset of problems, including "for this portion of the game, my damage spells are not sufficient to kill the things I need to kill."

So I guess, count me down for some kind of nerf to the tap/recharge mechanic, but please don't let mages solve all their problems by just flinging mana at them.
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15, 2019, 09:27   #4
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Saratoga, California (in the midst of Silicon Valley)
Posts: 490
bron is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
don't let mages solve all their problems by just flinging mana at them.
That is indeed part of the point. The way it is currently, pretty much any stack of wands can be used like a discount Staff of the Magi, granting effectively unlimited mana. Nerfing Tap/Recharge should both reduce the pool of mana available to a Mage, and make it less attractive to use wands/staffs as the *primary* means of play. Factoring out the uber device abilities into another whole different class, without all the other additional mage advantages, seems like an interesting and different style of play.
bron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15, 2019, 12:18   #5
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: London
Posts: 110
Voovus is on a distinguished road
I actually really like the fact that wands now rarely blow up, though I agree there's an issue with the Recharge/Tap pair. Rather than blowing up wands, how about making Recharge only give 1-2 extra charges up to a fairly small bound, something like 2 x (number of wands) [for offensive wands; higher numbers for things like Stone-to-Mud]? Then: (1) recharge+tap would eat up too many turns to be useful during a fight, and (2) having 10 wands of annihilation would be significantly better than having 2.

Regarding a new character class, I think the effect can be reasonably easily achieved by changing the magic device skill numbers on different races. For example, distinguish gnomes from hobbits by giving gnomes high int (+4?) and hobbits high device skill (+40?) - this will make gnome mages prefer spells and hobbit mages prefer wands.
Voovus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15, 2019, 16:15   #6
Gauss's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 91
Gauss is on a distinguished road
As Derakon said, part of the attractive of the mage class is not always relying on spells. According to lore also, magic is very scarce/limited so mages have to come up with creative ways when dealing with enemies, such as gandalf did on the trilogy.
Gauss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15, 2019, 18:48   #7
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 289
Chud is on a distinguished road
The last time I won with a mage (4.2.0) I pretty much did just rely purely on spells, with several stacks of batteries -- um, I mean, wands. Tap/recharge along with dimension door, once you get to 0% fail, seems very powerful. Also, repeated banishment makes looting even large vaults pretty safe most of the time.
Chud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15, 2019, 21:57   #8
Vanilla maintainer
Nick's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canberra, Australia
Age: 54
Posts: 7,982
Donated: $60
Nick will become famous soon enough
So what I'm hearing is that I can remove the whole horrible hack of boosting the damage of magic devices
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
Nick is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 16, 2019, 01:00   #9
Diego Gonzalez
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 90
Diego Gonzalez is on a distinguished road
I always mention oangband because I liked the way the 4 magic realms were designed. The true spell user was the necromancer, and the mage focused on magic devices. Wands of storms and striking were great. There were some artifacts wands and staves too.
I dont know if this approach is useful for Vanilla, but I like the possibilty of a crafty magic device user.
Diego Gonzalez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 16, 2019, 02:23   #10
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Saratoga, California (in the midst of Silicon Valley)
Posts: 490
bron is on a distinguished road
I feel like I'm being misunderstood somehow. Probably not, actually, but some of the comments don't make a lot of sense to me. People are saying they like the fact that mages sometimes get into situations where they can't rely only on their spells; even Gandalf swung his sword on occasion. Well, I don't have any problem with that; I'm not proposing restricting mages to only use spells. I'm saying that in the existing game, mages using devices has gotten out of hand, and you get into the situation where either (a) the devices become the *primary* means by which mages deal damage, or (b) the devices are used as infinite batteries, and once you have MB4 the mage just Mana Bolts everything, all the time (until you get MB5, when it gets even worse).

Several people (including me) propose that the Tap/Recharge cycle used by mages be sharply curtailed. *NOT* that device use be banned, or anything like that, just that the currently over-powered abilities of mages with regards to magic devices be reduced back down to more manageable levels. I think (?) most people believe that some sort of nerf in this regard is desirable.

What I'm saying in this suggestion is that I find the notion of a character with device mastery to be an interesting idea, and would make for a fun character with a different playstyle and a different "feel" to it. Something like the D&D "Artificer". So, I'm suggesting that when the nerf is applied to tone down things down a bit for the mages, that those abilities (or ones like them) get split off into a new character class, rather than simply dropped. Mastery with devices *without* all the other extra mage abilities could probably be balanced into an interesting class to play.

Nick: yes, I have no problem with eliminating the device-ability damage boost. Or maybe giving it only to the Artificer class.
bron is offline   Reply With Quote

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Suggested changes xorzac Sil 4 October 8, 2016 18:33
Code snippet to use character class as default filename when saving macros/keymaps Max Stats Development 3 March 16, 2011 14:05
Different character class, different game. Fendell Orcbane Vanilla 5 September 16, 2010 18:54
How about a new character class? The Blackguard Malak Darkhunter Variants 8 December 11, 2007 21:42
Analysis of the /lib directory and suggested changes. CJNyfalt Vanilla 5 June 22, 2007 13:26

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:05.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.