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Old April 24, 2010, 09:57   #11
Magnate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
(2) When I get around to implementing fractional blows, I intend to give warriors a 20% energy advantage over mixed classes. So if a rogue would use 25 energy per blow, a warrior with the same stats would use 20 energy per blow. You could imagine giving archers or egos a similar sort of energy modifier that would not be as grossly unbalancing as an entire extra shot.
A consensus was reached a while ago that energy-based attacks (aka fractional blows/shots) would be a Good Thing. I would agree with the above proposal that the ranger would get an energy advantage when shooting akin to the warrior's advantage in melee.

Removing extra shots seems to me too dramatic for an interim change. I'd hope we could get to a trunk version with fractional blows soon enough that we didn't need an interim change. If we did need one I'd go with the branding damage change over removing extra shots.
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Old April 24, 2010, 12:40   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
Removing extra shots seems to me too dramatic for an interim change. I'd hope we could get to a trunk version with fractional blows soon enough that we didn't need an interim change. If we did need one I'd go with the branding damage change over removing extra shots.
I agree it is a drastic change from status quo, but really ... rangers with 25 energy shots for same damage as full round of melee? It is massively broken damagewise compared to others right now. How about giving rangers +1 might instead of +1 shots?

Besides, how would fractional blows remove the need to remove rangers extra shots? (giving -10%, -20% energy cost reduction is an order of magnitude lesser bonus than extra shots +1, +2) Also, changing the branding damage instead and leaving rangers extra shots produces the problem of either:
A) need +1 or +2 extra shot weapon to do any kind of respectable ranged dmg with other classes, or
B) rangers are still insane damage masters if other classes can have decent ranged dmg.

Now, because this is a single player game there is no "real motive" to change it of course, but ... +1 might instead of +1 shots as interim change? :P
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Old April 24, 2010, 13:36   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ewert View Post
Now, because this is a single player game there is no "real motive" to change it of course, but ... +1 might instead of +1 shots as interim change? :P
that sounds like it might well be reasonable.. though would it only apply to long and short bows, or could they get a x8 on umbar?

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Old April 24, 2010, 17:52   #14
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Was it +shots only with bows, it was IIRC, so yeah no x8 or x9 umbar (though x8 is just heavy crossbow of extra shots +1, but saves ammo).
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Old April 24, 2010, 19:38   #15
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Well, I've seen x6 longbows generated in randarts, so currently a ranger can effectively have x18 in one round (x24 if an extra-shots non-bow is generated also), normally the damage is x12-x15 (x20 with haradrim and bard)

Sure it's a waste of ammo, but the damage/energy done is still quite staggering.
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Old April 24, 2010, 20:25   #16
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What I've been thinking of is to trim multipliers (instead of each +Y to might representing a (Y+1)X multiplier it would represent a (Y/2+1)X multiplier)

That puts Haradrim at X4, Bard at X3, a normal heavy crossbow at X2.5, and a normal longbow at X2. It really hurts slings the most, and upping the base damage for them might be wise since a thrown rock is a lot more effective than a thrown arrow.

Reducing the number of sources of extra shots would still be needed I expect even if this removed the need to eliminate them entirely.
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Old April 24, 2010, 20:56   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
Removing extra shots seems to me too dramatic for an interim change. I'd hope we could get to a trunk version with fractional blows soon enough that we didn't need an interim change. If we did need one I'd go with the branding damage change over removing extra shots.
I don't think that removing extra shots and moving to an energy-based system for shots is necessarily mutually-exclusive. If the ranger were the only class able to shoot quickly, that would do a good job of making it distinct from the other classes.

My concern is that a game that is balanced with extra shots in will necessarily weaken single-shot ranged combat significantly. That's why I believe the concept of extra shots needs to go. As I mentioned earlier, we could replace it with "fast shots". But I'd have some concerns about how we'd communicate that to the player. I actually favor the other suggestion made here: just use extra might instead.

If you compare melee and ranged attacks, you'll see that the multiplier on ranged attacks is basically like the number of blows you get in melee. Bows of Extra Might are directly analogous to Weapons of Extra Blows. Speeding up the rate of fire has no such corresponding ability in melee, though, and for good reason. Can you imagine a Whip of Doubled Attacks? It'd be insane. A Whip of Fast Attacks could be balanced (decreasing the energy cost for melee attacks by X%), but it's also basically identical in function to a Whip of Extra Blows.

I'm not saying that every missile ability needs to have a corresponding melee ability, but I do feel that the two need to be balanced with respect to each other, so neither way of attacking should have overwhelmingly powerful abilities.
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Old April 25, 2010, 00:41   #18
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I think someone should take a look at the final [O] and [FA] balance of missiles.

Shots are fractional and different based on WEAPON CLASS, CHARACTER CLASS, CHARACTER LEVEL and DEX. IE Ranger with max dex and max levels has a maximum of something like 3/2/2 extra shots to bows, XBows and slings respectively. Brands apply with lower effect in missiles than weapons (another reason it doesn't do as much damage), and dice for weapons is small. I hate missiles but have finished an [O] ranger and assassin, a [FA] ranger, and they are ok; with the exception of some extremely stealthy builds in [FA], everything seems balanced.
Also, every class has different bonuses to fractional extra shot. Melee classes usually do have a base +0.5 extra shot with maxed dex. Rogues have huge bonus xtra shots to slings, etc...

The cool thing is that, for example, a lvl 22 range with decent dex would have like 1.84 shots/turn, for example.

Another suggestion
Make max enchantment to generated ammo to be 15, not more. Also would alleviate the worrying to merge ammo.
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Old April 25, 2010, 04:57   #19
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Put me in the remove extra shots camp.

At the very least, extra shots should never appear on anything but launchers.
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Old April 25, 2010, 13:00   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atriel View Post
I think someone should take a look at the final [O] and [FA] balance of missiles.
I don't know anything about FA, but missile combat in O (and in S, which is the same) has long been considered significantly underpowered. I guess that's partly because it's so overpowered in V, but not entirely. I've played a lot of S, and it's *very* hard to build a character who kills primarily with missiles.
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