Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old April 14, 2013, 15:22   #1
fizzix
Prophet
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, US
Posts: 3,002
fizzix is on a distinguished road
Least exciting uniques

Like many people before me, I want to make a "shortened" version. However, I would like to keep most of the object and artifact development. I think this could fit well with 50 level game. The problem is uniques, there are far too many uniques for a 50 level game. I'm looking to remove the uniques that are least interesting, so this is an attempt to catalogue that. So which uniques do you find to you find the most yawn inducing. Here's my list (with some reasons why.)

Code:
Grip + fang (should be combined into a pair that shows up together.)
Mughash (should be replaced with a kobold lord monster)
Brodda
Orfax (just boldor is enough)
out of (lagduf, grishnakh, golfimbul, ufthak, shagrat, gorbag, bolg, 
lugdush, ugluk, azog) keep how many?  which ones?
Ulfast, Ulwarth (maybe should accompany ulfang)
Ibun, khim are the same (should come together, maybe as escorts to Mim)
Sangahyando and Angamaite should come together, or be dropped altogether
Uldor (a weaker version of ulfang)
Lokkak 
Bert Bill Tom (should come as a trio without escorts)
Queen ant (I feel many ants and this unique are misplaced in difficulty. 
She's uninteresting where she is, but could be neat earlier.)
Castamir
Rogrog
Vargo, Waldern, Quaker, Ariel (no drops, so just avoid)
Scatha, Itangast
Balrog of Moria (Lungorthin and Gothmog are enough)
Lernean Hydra (enough fire breathing uniques, no need for this one)
Arien (same as above)
Radagast (why stronger than Saruman, why summon Maia and not animals?)
Cat lord
Out of Polyphemus, Atlas, Kronos, probably keep 1
Omarax
Feagwath (weaker version of Vecna)
Cantoras
Huan (why are you fighting it?  If it stays it should come with Carcharoth)
The 9 ringwraiths are not terribly interesting.  Perhaps make them all weaker and have them arrive together as escorts for the witch-king.
fizzix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 14, 2013, 18:25   #2
Pete Mack
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,661
Donated: $40
Pete Mack is on a distinguished road
In my opinion you are making a mistake in assuming that all uniques should be "interesting".
a. When I first meet the Queen Ant, she is always a challenge, and a real problem in vaults.
b. Elementals are annoying. Why should the uniques be any different


The sets of uniques appearing together is solved in NPPAngband.
Pete Mack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 14, 2013, 18:53   #3
Raxmei
Apprentice
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 94
Raxmei is on a distinguished road
Nar the Dwarf isn't terribly interesting.
Raxmei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 14, 2013, 19:13   #4
fizzix
Prophet
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, US
Posts: 3,002
fizzix is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
In my opinion you are making a mistake in assuming that all uniques should be "interesting".
a. When I first meet the Queen Ant, she is always a challenge, and a real problem in vaults.
b. Elementals are annoying. Why should the uniques be any different
Well the problem is more that if you move to a 50 level dungeon from an 100 level dungeon then it makes sense to remove some of the uniques. So it's more a method of choosing which ones to get rid of. (A common choice is to eliminate the non-Tolkien uniques, but I'd rather get rid of the non-interesting ones)
fizzix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15, 2013, 00:55   #5
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,016
Derakon is on a distinguished road
Why should uniques be removed? What's wrong with having a 50-level dungeon that has 5000 enemy types in it?
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15, 2013, 02:07   #6
scud
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Sarf Laaaahdon
Posts: 323
scud is on a distinguished road
I love and cherish all 97 of them in 3.3.2. I do like the idea of the stone trolls et al appearing on family outings, though.

Re rubbish uniques I'd agree that the elemental uniques are dull and avoidable; that the ringwraiths get weaker relative to my adventurer until the last two with their greater undead summon; also (possibly because I'm 'fire immunity' obsessed) the unique balrogs are a bunch of pansies.
scud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15, 2013, 03:08   #7
Feloniousmonk
Rookie
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 19
Feloniousmonk is on a distinguished road
why get rid of any of the uniques? I feel pretty strongly about this one. I'm open to change but the reasoning would have to be fairly convincing.
Feloniousmonk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15, 2013, 03:34   #8
emulord
Adept
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 196
emulord is on a distinguished road
I like all the uniques. I do agree that some would be better if they were reworked.

Bill+Tom+Bert should appear with each other and no other escorts.
WitchKing should appear with all the other ringwraiths.
If Grip and Fang appear together they should be 1 dlevel deeper. Even solo they're very dangerous at depth.


I can't think of anything else that needs to be changed, but I'm sure you could improve some of these unique fights.
emulord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15, 2013, 04:03   #9
fizzix
Prophet
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, US
Posts: 3,002
fizzix is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Why should uniques be removed? What's wrong with having a 50-level dungeon that has 5000 enemy types in it?
Generally uniques are a cut above the normal monsters that roam around the dungeon. Part of my goals are to reduce situations where you need to rely on certain tactics (TO, destruction, etc.) I'd like it to be possible, albeit a bit difficult, to descend + clear every level using only what you find in the dungeon. This involves reducing the super deadly monsters that appear on any level. If uniques are super-deadly (and most are at depth, and I'd like them to be too) then that means that you can't have so many uniques occurring on any level.

If Sauron and Morgoth can summon uniques, and I'd like them to be able to, then it means that you need to kill the deadly uniques before you face them. I'm not sure that this form of Angband is any better for gameplay value than current Vanilla. It certainly would be a huge stylistic departure for how we tend to approach the game. But I'd like to try! That means cutting uniques down to about 50.

To be clear, this is for my own experiment. It's very unlikely that any of these changes would be suitable for V, although if I find some interesting rebalancing methods that seem apropos, I'll propose them.
fizzix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15, 2013, 10:06   #10
Timo Pietilš
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Climbing up from hole I just dug.
Posts: 4,096
Timo Pietilš is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
Like many people before me, I want to make a "shortened" version. However, I would like to keep most of the object and artifact development. I think this could fit well with 50 level game. The problem is uniques, there are far too many uniques for a 50 level game. I'm looking to remove the uniques that are least interesting, so this is an attempt to catalogue that. So which uniques do you find to you find the most yawn inducing.
I don't agree with most of your list. All of the early uniques are good source for items (or should be). Orc uniques I would keep because they are appropriate to atmosphere. They are more like special rooms than individually interesting monsters. Orc pits that appear at random location. Some of the suggestions you made are good ones though, like grouping ringwraiths, Grip&Fang, Tom,Bill,Bert etc.

My list:

Most early humanoid uniques are boring with exception to Wormtongue. About at Lorgan -depth they start to be interesting.

All the giant uniques are boring. I actually don't even care which one I'm fighting when I meet them. Unique Q:s are boring. Thuringwethil doesn't pose any threat whatsoever for the depth of it, it's just... there. Should have like nether breath or something like that to make it interesting. PASS_WALL like elder vampires at least. Pazuzu is boring and feels out of place compared to all of the rest of demons (if you change it to bird, like companion to Phoenix, it could work better).

Huan and Radagast don't belong to dungeon at all. Need replacement for Radagast. OssŽ is old Azriel, but I think OssŽ would work better as Gabriel-replacement than Radagast (give it water bolt). We need some maia from Mandos folk to properly replace Azriel (nether/death), but unfortunately I don't know any. Arien should be closer in power to Greater Balrogs (I think all Balrogs are originally same class as Arien, but just corrupted by Morgoth)
Timo Pietilš is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Purple uniques fizzix Development 0 July 13, 2011 00:24
Deep Uniques Merlin Vanilla 10 June 11, 2011 20:50
should uniques be trample-able? fizzix Vanilla 18 July 25, 2010 11:43
mystery uniques. Pete Mack Vanilla 6 January 16, 2010 16:39
Run away from uniques! slashme Vanilla 3 February 25, 2008 19:44


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 14:05.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.