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Old November 23, 2014, 06:40   #41
Estie
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Originally Posted by mushroom patch View Post
Really? You don't recall an rpg where shops consist only of useful gear? <snip>
Yes really, otherwise I wouldnt have said it. Why so agressive ?

When I say "AC is worthless", you argue against it. Then you point out that the armor shop is useless, which is one aspect of my more general statement about AC. It feels like you just want to bandy words.

If you want to convert "misguided" players like that vlogger to your playstyle, thats your business. In my opinion, it is perfectly fine when people do other things with Angband than just trying to kill M as efficiently as possible.
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Old November 23, 2014, 10:12   #42
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To get back to the OP posters concern. The first few levels of the dungeon are generally perceived as relatively boring because the monsters you encounter are all very similar and there is a lot of walking around without encountering anything noteworthy.
Advanced players counter that by trying to rush through the first 5-10 dungeon levels as fast as possible, killing only a few worthwhile opponents. In general they would do perfectly fine if the dungeon were to start at the current dlevel 5, maybe even 10. However, newbie players would be slaughtered if there level 1 chars would thrown in at a deeper dungeon level.
So proposed solution: increase the difficulty level of the first few levels and make more dangerous and more varied monsters appear right from the start. Give players the option to start with much improved starting gear to counter the increasing difficulty. Different chars get different gear, so choosing different chars teach you different techniques.
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Old November 23, 2014, 15:33   #43
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Originally Posted by Estie View Post
Yes really, otherwise I wouldnt have said it. Why so agressive ?

When I say "AC is worthless", you argue against it. Then you point out that the armor shop is useless, which is one aspect of my more general statement about AC. It feels like you just want to bandy words.
I agree that these interactions are pointless. I claim that the AC available at the beginning from the armor shop is a waste of money (which is so obviously true, you don't even bother to argue against the point) and you say I've contradicted points I've made elsewhere about the role of AC in meleeing Morgoth. This is not exactly intelligent discussion.

Quote:
If you want to convert "misguided" players like that vlogger to your playstyle, thats your business. In my opinion, it is perfectly fine when people do other things with Angband than just trying to kill M as efficiently as possible.
The pretense here is that the game doesn't do anything to guide players into these patterns of play, that they are simply doing what they want to do. Of course, you do not confront the observation that new players consistently fall into roughly the same pattern. Meanwhile, in advocating a lower latency early game, I am tyrannically trying to shoehorn everyone into my own conception of how to play. Again, you do not confront the observation that people quickly tire of losing a game for doing what it would seem they're supposed to be doing. This rhetoric of player choice is a dodge to avoid defending design decisions made decades ago that don't make much sense.

Quote:
To get back to the OP posters concern. The first few levels of the dungeon are generally perceived as relatively boring because the monsters you encounter are all very similar and there is a lot of walking around without encountering anything noteworthy.
Advanced players counter that by trying to rush through the first 5-10 dungeon levels as fast as possible, killing only a few worthwhile opponents. In general they would do perfectly fine if the dungeon were to start at the current dlevel 5, maybe even 10. However, newbie players would be slaughtered if there level 1 chars would thrown in at a deeper dungeon level.
So proposed solution: increase the difficulty level of the first few levels and make more dangerous and more varied monsters appear right from the start. Give players the option to start with much improved starting gear to counter the increasing difficulty. Different chars get different gear, so choosing different chars teach you different techniques.
The OP is suggesting just chopping off the first 5 or so dungeon levels and commensurately increasing the player's initial capabilities to handle the increased initial threat. It's actually a very modest, sensible change. New players would not see a real change in initial difficulty because the monsters on the first level would still be weaklings (yeeks and snakes instead of fruit bats and small kobolds) and their characters would be more able to handle them. The main difference is that it would take approximately a half hour to an hour less play time to reach whatever part of the game they're stuck on after they die.

Last edited by mushroom patch; November 23, 2014 at 15:48.
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Old November 23, 2014, 18:37   #44
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Originally Posted by mushroom patch View Post
I agree that these interactions are pointless. I claim that the AC available at the beginning from the armor shop is a waste of money (which is so obviously true, you don't even bother to argue against the point) and you say I've contradicted points I've made elsewhere about the role of AC in meleeing Morgoth. This is not exactly intelligent discussion.



The pretense here is that the game doesn't do anything to guide players into these patterns of play, that they are simply doing what they want to do. Of course, you do not confront the observation that new players consistently fall into roughly the same pattern. Meanwhile, in advocating a lower latency early game, I am tyrannically trying to shoehorn everyone into my own conception of how to play. Again, you do not confront the observation that people quickly tire of losing a game for doing what it would seem they're supposed to be doing. This rhetoric of player choice is a dodge to avoid defending design decisions made decades ago that don't make much sense.



The OP is suggesting just chopping off the first 5 or so dungeon levels and commensurately increasing the player's initial capabilities to handle the increased initial threat. It's actually a very modest, sensible change. New players would not see a real change in initial difficulty because the monsters on the first level would still be weaklings (yeeks and snakes instead of fruit bats and small kobolds) and their characters would be more able to handle them. The main difference is that it would take approximately a half hour to an hour less play time to reach whatever part of the game they're stuck on after they die.
Why would I want to argue against a point I made myself ?
For the record: AC is worthless because I dont want to buy basic armor from the armor smith at the start.
That doesnt make the armorsmith worthless; I might buy special armors like boots of stealth or leather of resistance. In this regard, the shop is the same as an armor shop in Nethack or Dragon Age or Diablo 2, to name a few: ignore basic armors, consider buying if they stock enchanted gear.
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Old November 23, 2014, 21:07   #45
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guys I hear dead horses are on fire sale this weekend
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Old November 23, 2014, 23:27   #46
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guys I hear dead horses are on fire sale this weekend
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...88/486/8c0.png
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Old November 24, 2014, 01:56   #47
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guys I hear dead horses are on fire sale this weekend
I assume you know because you set fire to them
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Old November 24, 2014, 03:57   #48
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It's also mean to taunt people with the availability of dead horses and not any means to flog them. Perhaps the local BDSM store will have some flogging devices? I guess that's a Whip (+0, +0) on the BM
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Old November 24, 2014, 04:10   #49
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I assume you know because you set fire to them
Yes, good testing fodder for incendiary rockets
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Old November 24, 2014, 11:19   #50
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I propose we ban flasks of oil. Horses don't kill horses, flasks of oil kill horses.
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