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Old May 18, 2010, 17:20   #11
miyazaki
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Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
I disagree, I don't like where it is right now. I spend way too much of the game (well, pretty much all of it) looking for stat gain. My most recent character just killed Sauron and I still clear out pits hoping for !Dex. That's broken.
I just looked at your character dump (nice dagger, BTW). I think that you are an elite player--ironman win, going for a sub-500k win. You can deal with the adversity of a low dex. I'm quite confident you could take on M without more dexterity.

It highlights the fact that Angband players have a huge range of skill levels and the game needs to remain difficult across all player skill levels. The infrequency of stat potions is a good way of organically increasing the difficulty level for skilled players looking for low turncount wins.

The ladder is full of winning characters who don't have their stats maxed out. It is a natural progression: once you have gotten your first win, you start taking more chances, start being more comfortable with resistance gaps in your kit and stats lower than you would like.

I am sympathetic to your current character, but I think that you should see this low dex as a individual challenge rather than a global problem. That said, I don't disagree with this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
1: stats are unbalanced (specifically INT/WIS and CON) to give huge gains near max and almost useless gains lower. Going from con 18/00 to 18/50 is pretty useless. Going from 18/150 to 18/200 is huge. This means that you often need a *lot* of stat gain potions to get those benefits you need. Especially Con. Not enough Con and you *cannot* beat Morgoth.
2: clearing mobs of weak monster is a good method for stat gain.
3: Drop_good monsters (all uniques with drops, minus the lernean hydra) cannot drop stat potions. Just add stat potions to drop_good already. If each unique drop had a 5% chance of being a stat_gain potion, almost all the problems I have with stat gain would be solved.
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Old May 18, 2010, 18:06   #12
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Originally Posted by miyazaki View Post
I just looked at your character dump (nice dagger, BTW). I think that you are an elite player--ironman win, going for a sub-500k win. You can deal with the adversity of a low dex. I'm quite confident you could take on M without more dexterity.

It highlights the fact that Angband players have a huge range of skill levels and the game needs to remain difficult across all player skill levels. The infrequency of stat potions is a good way of organically increasing the difficulty level for skilled players looking for low turncount wins.

The ladder is full of winning characters who don't have their stats maxed out. It is a natural progression: once you have gotten your first win, you start taking more chances, start being more comfortable with resistance gaps in your kit and stats lower than you would like.

I am sympathetic to your current character, but I think that you should see this low dex as a individual challenge rather than a global problem. That said, I don't disagree with this:
I guess, I can agree with most of your comments, excepting the elite player. There's still enough of the game that I haven't mastered, and may never.

I guess my problems don't really relate to the rarity of stat potions, but rather how they're acquired. I guess that's why I also don't like selling them as a solution. I'd really like to see stat-gain as a possible reward for killing difficult monsters.
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Old May 18, 2010, 21:08   #13
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To respond to Derakon's point: fewer stat gainers wouldn't help that much, because we just don't find that many in the first place. In fact, it might hurt, as now there would be overall fewer to be dropped.

The fact that you get a boost to 2 stats at one time, would certainly help. However, were I going to do paired, I'd use different combinations...but thinking about it, *on the assumption that Stealth replaces Char*...how about 5 potions?

--Dex/Stealth...pretty much universal appeal, across all classes anyway.

--then 1 for each physical stat/mental stat combo: Str/Int, Str/Wis, Con/Int, Con/Wis. What I'm aiming for is, none of these is of low value to any class. A priest would still like the Str/Int combo, for example. And, at least 1 should be of very high value to every class, perhaps *except* fighters...and they're equally happy with all of them.

It wouldn't be horrible for the Dex booster to give +1 Char, or perhaps it should give +2 Dex, and leave the Char potion alone for now...?

Another option which hasn't been mentioned, is letting things alone while consumables generation is reviewed. I've seen, and agree with, comments to the effect that potion/scroll drops are down, relative to wearable equipment. It may well be that if there's just more consumables produced, the issue might no longer even arise.
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Old May 19, 2010, 00:15   #14
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The lowering of stat potion drops was directly related to Tak's crusade against TMJ, which was mostly very successful. Perhaps the solution to stat potions (if there is actually need for a solution) might be based on drop rates.
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Old May 19, 2010, 18:24   #15
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I think consumable drops need to be separated from equipment drops so that they can be dealt with independently. There was never really a TMJ problem with consumables. You can always just become more profligate if you're drowning in heroism potions or other low level consumables. Any solution should have been designed to preserve the consumables distribution.

Suppose monster X used to drop 1d3 items, and now drops 1. What it should do is drop 1 equippable and 1d2 or 1d3-1 consumables.

One way to do it without changing file parsing or needing new flags is to limit all non-drop_good monsters to only ever drop one equippable, and the rest must be consumables, then go back to the old drop quantities for everything without drop_good.
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Old May 19, 2010, 18:34   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atarlost View Post
I think consumable drops need to be separated from equipment drops so that they can be dealt with independently. There was never really a TMJ problem with consumables. You can always just become more profligate if you're drowning in heroism potions or other low level consumables. Any solution should have been designed to preserve the consumables distribution.

Suppose monster X used to drop 1d3 items, and now drops 1. What it should do is drop 1 equippable and 1d2 or 1d3-1 consumables.

One way to do it without changing file parsing or needing new flags is to limit all non-drop_good monsters to only ever drop one equippable, and the rest must be consumables, then go back to the old drop quantities for everything without drop_good.
I think it's the right idea, but you night need a little more than that. I don't think that would have a significant enough impact. Most of the non-drop_good monsters are unlikely to drop more than two weapons as is. In fact, the probability of an Ancient dragon dropping two useless weapons is a lot less than the probability of the dragon having two gold drops.

Which leads to, how about having a decreasing probability of gold drops as you descend in the dungeon? This might be a problem if you move to a 'no selling to stores' system, but then you need to retool the drops anyway.

Or maybe consumables aren't broken and we're all playing faster than we're supposed to be?
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Old May 19, 2010, 19:21   #17
Tiburon Silverflame
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Are any of the potions classed as 'good'? That would be one thing right there. What would I rather see Maggot drop, a dagger of slay undead or a !Str?

It is true, tho, that a gold drop is effectively the same as no drop at all, once you're wrapping up stat gain. What might be more fun is to make gold drops less common, but MUCH larger when they do happen, at those deeper levels. There's a visceral, emotional appeal to the whole 'dragon's hoard' notion that just isn't satisfied with getting 500 gp out of it. "Hey, I throw away stuff worth 5x that." 5000 gp worth of sapphires or diamonds or rubies...now that's way cool.
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Old May 20, 2010, 06:24   #18
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Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
Or maybe consumables aren't broken and we're all playing faster than we're supposed to be?
Someone might easily make the argument that
  1. Dive fast to make the game more exciting
  2. Complain that you're dying too much until devs give in and the game is made easier
  3. Go to 1
is an algorithm that doesn't terminate.

I, of course, would not make that argument. No, sir.
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Old May 20, 2010, 13:27   #19
Jungle_Boy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
Someone might easily make the argument that
  1. Dive fast to make the game more exciting
  2. Complain that you're dying too much until devs give in and the game is made easier
  3. Go to 1
is an algorithm that doesn't terminate.

I, of course, would not make that argument. No, sir.
Well I got the dive fast and die lots thing down pat.
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Old May 20, 2010, 13:52   #20
HallucinationMushroom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
Someone might easily make the argument that
  1. Dive fast to make the game more exciting
  2. Complain that you're dying too much until devs give in and the game is made easier
  3. Go to 1
is an algorithm that doesn't terminate.

I, of course, would not make that argument. No, sir.
Haha, oh man. I need to fire up the complainer after reading that.
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