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Old January 3, 2018, 12:02   #71
Gwarl
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I honestly don't think it's a positive change at all. You could recreate the effect on gameplay by giving all monsters slightly erratic movement, reducing their speed by 2, reducing their damage and to hit, and removing inventory slots from the player. This would be preferable as there would be fewer keystrokes.

Standard confuse/slow can be used creatively in a variety of situations, i.e. hampering the lead monster in a group to be able to escape down a corridor.

I appreciate I am sort of a lone crusader for the old status effects, but I also think they were underused and underappreciated and the change caters to people who don't like using status effects. I don't think status effects should cater to them - the rest of the game does. The unpredictability of status effects as well as the sensitivity to context of their usefulness catered toward a different kind of playstyle which I haven't been able to pursue in a game since. It feels hollow and pushes me toward other variants which is a shame because I like everything else that was going on with V.
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Old January 3, 2018, 21:55   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwarl View Post
I honestly don't think it's a positive change at all. You could recreate the effect on gameplay by giving all monsters slightly erratic movement, reducing their speed by 2, reducing their damage and to hit, and removing inventory slots from the player. This would be preferable as there would be fewer keystrokes.

Standard confuse/slow can be used creatively in a variety of situations, i.e. hampering the lead monster in a group to be able to escape down a corridor.
OK, so here's an idea - I assume it's slow and confuse that you have the problem with, and this works for both of them.

Keep the new mechanics, except magnify the effects the more slowed/confused the monster is. So, using slow as an example, slowing something once reduces its speed by 2, but you can keep doing that and it will keep getting slower - and then gradually speed up as the effect wears off.

Now imagine using a staff of Confuse Monsters multiple times on a mixed group of hounds
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Old January 3, 2018, 23:21   #73
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I think it would be preferable simply giving the monster a save.

If the effect is effective on everything it will trivialise the entire game, as when no-save was first introduced before the effects themselves were nerfed to compensate. Confuse shouldn't work on everything, it should be great when it does but let you down if you're leaning on it as a crutch. Saving throws vs status effects are a good mechanic, it just needed a little tweaking, not to throw the entire system away.
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Old January 4, 2018, 07:21   #74
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Well, we have plenty of time to experiment before 4.2, and the druid class (which I'm hoping to get a testing version out for before too long) should be good for that.
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Old January 4, 2018, 18:36   #75
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testplay experience

Hmm, i played a few new mages to around CL 25 DL 30. Without taking numbers it seemed to me that it even got harder than before. Now i took a look at the coming books #4 / #5 which i never found so far.

light / spear of light were very much used before from me, didn't expect them to be such good to keep early dungeon control up

i miss stone to mud a lot in the mid game, making new shortcuts or the like, or creating new tunnnels for the bolt spells

now i see #4 and #5 start dropping from DL50 on. That totally breaks with the exponential power curve to my understanding. And there is no in-between power level between #2 and #5. That is a major design fault in my eyes.

And there is no haste self anymore. That was a major compensator to negate the very weak physical abilites, because you were quicker than most monsters. And only a little number of monsters could double-move you.

I still think banishment / mass banishment are no good from game mechanics point of view.

So i sadly classify the new mage as badly designed. I cannot realy understand the changes. To make mage class more interesting it is required to increase the relevant number of drops, not to reduce them. The spell power does not grow exponential anymore.

If that is the way the game will develop i encourage to take out banishment / mass banishment, add haste self to book 4, move mana bolt from #5 to #4 and almost double damage of mana bolt. Mana bolt and mana storm damage should be based on CL so that early dropds to not destroy game balance too hard. 1/4 damage fix 3/4 of it CL based.
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Old January 4, 2018, 20:29   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibarius View Post
Hmm, i played a few new mages to around CL 25 DL 30. Without taking numbers it seemed to me that it even got harder than before. Now i took a look at the coming books #4 / #5 which i never found so far.

light / spear of light were very much used before from me, didn't expect them to be such good to keep early dungeon control up

i miss stone to mud a lot in the mid game, making new shortcuts or the like, or creating new tunnnels for the bolt spells

now i see #4 and #5 start dropping from DL50 on. That totally breaks with the exponential power curve to my understanding. And there is no in-between power level between #2 and #5. That is a major design fault in my eyes.

And there is no haste self anymore. That was a major compensator to negate the very weak physical abilites, because you were quicker than most monsters. And only a little number of monsters could double-move you.

I still think banishment / mass banishment are no good from game mechanics point of view.

So i sadly classify the new mage as badly designed. I cannot realy understand the changes. To make mage class more interesting it is required to increase the relevant number of drops, not to reduce them. The spell power does not grow exponential anymore.

If that is the way the game will develop i encourage to take out banishment / mass banishment, add haste self to book 4, move mana bolt from #5 to #4 and almost double damage of mana bolt. Mana bolt and mana storm damage should be based on CL so that early dropds to not destroy game balance too hard. 1/4 damage fix 3/4 of it CL based.
Thanks for all your excellent feedback. I'll rework new mages again, along the following lines:
  • Book 5 will probably start dropping at DL70 (I'm not sure what I intended, but it wasn't 4 and 5 at 50);
  • I want to keep Banishment and Mass Banishment, but they need to be late;
  • At least one of the book 5 spells needs to be earlier, probably Mana Bolt.

For your other issues, Spear of Light and Stone to Mud I expected players would miss, but they can be replaced with wand/rod use. Haste is an interesting one which I haven't solved yet.

And badly designed - yes, but we're not finished yet
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Old January 4, 2018, 21:15   #77
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improvement suggestion

I was editing my earlier post because i recognized that it is not enough to just claim a bad design, but also suggest something better instead. But Nick already replied while i was editing. So here are the improvement suggestions ...

Book drop level should be something like
1: shop
2: DL 10
3: DL 20
4: DL 30
5: DL 50
6: DL 80

No good is the thematic order because gaining books should influence the char power level more than adding certain kind of spells.

So my proposal (spell level, spell name):

#1 Path of the Mage (available in shop)
01 magic missile
02 detect monsters
03 find doors, traps & stairs
04 recharge (must have realy low rate to explode wands / staves)
05 frost bolt (mana 2)

#2 Arcane Patterns
06 phase door (mana 2)
07 identify (should also identify potions & scrolls)
08 disable traps & destroy doors
09 probe monster (as if you had a rod of probing, only for a single monster tho)
10 fire bolt (mana 3)

#3 Wizard Visions
11 reveal monsters (mana 3)
12 acid bolt (mana 4)
13 fire ball (mana 5, range 2)
14 detect treasures
15 teleport self

#4 Arcane Control
16 stone to mud
17 teleport other
18 resistance cold
19 resistance fire
20 shield (+AC & nothing in the inventory can be destroyed anymore by secondary effects)

#5 Sorcerer's Force
21 resistance
22 explosion (mana 8, range 2 shard ball)
23 word of recall
24 teleport level
25 mana bolt (mana 10, damage CL*5, additional hold effect if monster fails saving throw)

#6 The Warlocks Tome of Power
26 greater recharge
27 telepathy
28 Dimension Door (teleport to location)
29 globe of protection (immunity cold, fire, acid, electricity + monsters can enter melee range only if they succeed a dice roll vs CL)
30 mana storm (mana 15, range 3 mana ball, damage CL*10, additional hold effect if monster fails saving throw)

The mage's special is that at CL 20 and CL 40 the mana regeneration is doubled (making it x4 at CL 40).
Chance for beam instead of bolt is CL/2.
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Old January 4, 2018, 21:29   #78
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Haste is an interesting one which I haven't solved yet.
If the problem is thematic, and you believe that haste self is a nature spell because it "affects the player directly", then a cheap fix would be having a "slow the passing of time around the player" spell, which is clearly arcane in theme...
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Old January 4, 2018, 21:34   #79
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slow

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If the problem is thematic, and you believe that haste self is a nature spell because it "affects the player directly", then a cheap fix would be having a "slow the passing of time around the player" spell, which is clearly arcane in theme...
*laugh* i actually considerd that too!

But again *beg* please remove Banishment / Mass Banishment, i think the proposed globe of protection spell fits more thematic AND game mechanic like.
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Old January 5, 2018, 01:47   #80
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04 recharge (must have really low rate to explode wands / staves)
Can I sneak in a suggestion here? Can we make all recharging effects display the percentage chance of failure? And remove curse too (instead of the strengths vs. dice)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick;
Keep the new mechanics, except magnify the effects the more slowed/confused the monster is. So, using slow as an example, slowing something once reduces its speed by 2, but you can keep doing that and it will keep getting slower - and then gradually speed up as the effect wears off.
Remember that this would make subsequent slow effects last much longer than the initial ones, which would lead to stacking slow possibly being much better than stacking confuses. Of course, you could make the additional slow effects shorter and shorter to compensate. Come to think of it, how many turns is a monster expected to lose per slow effect right now?

I've not yet had a chance to try out the new mage. Probably won't since I'm an Angband newbie and won't have the best feel for balance and so forth, but the conversations around it are quite interesting.
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