Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > AAR

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old March 9, 2021, 22:23   #11
Pete Mack
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,587
Donated: $40
Pete Mack is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
What I'm hearing is I need to nerf randarts again.
Pretty much, yeah. Nether resist is *way* too common. It should be hard to get.
Pete Mack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10, 2021, 00:43   #12
Ed_47569
Apprentice
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Eastham, Wirral, UK
Age: 38
Posts: 81
Ed_47569 is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to Ed_47569
I wouldn't complain too much...

[Character Equipment]

a) the Mace of Disruption 'Deathwreaker' (7d8) (+18,+18) <+6, +4>
Found lying on the floor in a vault at 4850 feet (level 97)

+6 strength.
+4 tunneling.
Slays undead (powerfully), dragons, animals, evil creatures.
Branded with fire.
Provides immunity to fire.
Provides resistance to dark, chaos, disenchantment.
Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.
Aggravates creatures nearby.

Combat info:
4.0 blows/round.
With +0 STR and +2 DEX you would get 4.5 blows
Average damage/round: 689.2 vs. creatures not resistant to fire,
1006.8 vs. undead, 689.2 vs. dragons, 530.4 vs. animals, 530.4 vs.
evil creatures, and 371.6 vs. others.


l) the Pair of Leather Boots of FŽanor [2,+20] <+15>
Found lying on the floor in a vault at 4550 feet (level 91)

+15 speed.
Provides resistance to nexus.
Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.

When activated, it hastens you for d20+20 turns.
Takes 760 turns to recharge at your current speed.
Your chance of success is 90.9%
Ed_47569 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10, 2021, 00:56   #13
Pete Mack
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,587
Donated: $40
Pete Mack is on a distinguished road
I didn't catch that he'd got two of the very best artifacts in the game. Part of the problem is that H-T is not a great choice for paladin, as it's really hard to get 5 blows. That said, Trickery is easily a better choice than Elessar.
Pete Mack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10, 2021, 01:19   #14
Ed_47569
Apprentice
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Eastham, Wirral, UK
Age: 38
Posts: 81
Ed_47569 is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to Ed_47569
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
I didn't catch that he'd got two of the very best artifacts in the game. Part of the problem is that H-T is not a great choice for paladin, as it's really hard to get 5 blows. That said, Trickery is easily a better choice than Elessar.
I would agree - Elessar has been nerfed at some point, it used to have +7/+7 hit/damage bonuses. Trickery or Weaponmastery are my favourites.
Ed_47569 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10, 2021, 07:12   #15
Mondkalb
Knight
 
Mondkalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 974
Mondkalb is on a distinguished road
Random ego items sound like fun.
Mondkalb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10, 2021, 22:17   #16
Sky
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: London-ish
Age: 49
Posts: 2,064
Sky is on a distinguished road
again, it's not the weapon, or the speed. It's the fact that cloaks, gloves, armors, are pathetic. Midrange weapons are pathetic. You don't get cloaks +6 DEX rChaos rDisen pStun +2 Spd with standarts. There's no boots +10 Spd +3 CON +3 DEX *Cold A:Tele_Self.
You get miserable stuff like the plate of Isildur (which you would imaging is a majestic artifact of infinite splendour) which has a pathetic +1 CON, rNexus and pConf.

The armor i am wearing NOW for my randart troll (nowhere near DL97) has +4 INT (don't need it), +5 CON, pConf/Stun/Blind, dark/shards/disench.
I have 4 sustains, *Elect, STR/CON/WIS capped, and frankly, this is one of the most mediocre randart sets i have ever played.

Here is the cloak i was wearing until just now:
+6 WIS, rLight, pBlind, pStun, SI, A: Detection.

Every item is full of things; they are random, but there's enough that by moving around the gear, you can easily get everything that you need.
Instead standarts are .. "themed". WHY does Thorin need -stealth. *Acid too powerful? Come on.
Standart set is scared to give you a +4 CON item without attaching some downside to it. I'm at +14 equipment bonus and have been for a considerable time, with the other character i was at 18/190 for ages. Randarts are so powerful that you can vulgarly throw together a set without even bothering to read them fully, and you'll still be overpowered.


Nick, if you are reading this .. and you are .. you need to add a floating, few randarts to the standart set. As it it, it sucks.
__________________
"i can take this dracolich"
Sky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 10, 2021, 22:26   #17
Pete Mack
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,587
Donated: $40
Pete Mack is on a distinguished road
@Sky--
Not so. There are two excellent pairs of gloves in the standard artifact set. Each gives good damage and helps in melee stats. (There is a third that makes a viable imFire swap.) That you find Cambeleg underpowered almost certainly means that randarts are unbalanced; not so much because the randart gloves are more powerful, but because they give so many options that making an Uber kit is too easy. Standarts are balanced by strictly limiting the capabilities in each slot.
Pete Mack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11, 2021, 00:05   #18
Nick
Vanilla maintainer
 
Nick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canberra, Australia
Age: 56
Posts: 9,163
Donated: $60
Nick will become famous soon enoughNick will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky View Post
again, it's not the weapon, or the speed. It's the fact that cloaks, gloves, armors, are pathetic. Midrange weapons are pathetic. You don't get cloaks +6 DEX rChaos rDisen pStun +2 Spd with standarts. There's no boots +10 Spd +3 CON +3 DEX *Cold A:Tele_Self.
You get miserable stuff like the plate of Isildur (which you would imaging is a majestic artifact of infinite splendour) which has a pathetic +1 CON, rNexus and pConf.

The armor i am wearing NOW for my randart troll (nowhere near DL97) has +4 INT (don't need it), +5 CON, pConf/Stun/Blind, dark/shards/disench.
I have 4 sustains, *Elect, STR/CON/WIS capped, and frankly, this is one of the most mediocre randart sets i have ever played.

Here is the cloak i was wearing until just now:
+6 WIS, rLight, pBlind, pStun, SI, A: Detection.

Every item is full of things; they are random, but there's enough that by moving around the gear, you can easily get everything that you need.
Instead standarts are .. "themed". WHY does Thorin need -stealth. *Acid too powerful? Come on.
Standart set is scared to give you a +4 CON item without attaching some downside to it. I'm at +14 equipment bonus and have been for a considerable time, with the other character i was at 18/190 for ages. Randarts are so powerful that you can vulgarly throw together a set without even bothering to read them fully, and you'll still be overpowered.


Nick, if you are reading this .. and you are .. you need to add a floating, few randarts to the standart set. As it it, it sucks.
Yes, I am reading this

I will express my opinion about this now, so there is no doubt.

The problem is not the standard artifacts, it is randarts. The standard artifacts are designed with game balance in mind. Randarts are meant to be similar in power, so they give a similar game experience but allow a player who is overly familiar with the standard artifact set to get more surprises. The problem is that trying to make a "random" set of artifacts is a long way from being a clearly defined problem.

The current algorithm scans the standard artifacts to get a distribution of properties across them, and then attempts to pick randomly from that distribution. But it is far from clear what that actually means, so the history is that there's an attempted algorithm, people complain about the results, and then the algorithm is tweaked until people stop complaining. The only virtue of this is that people aren't complaining (much) about randarts.

So my three options for randarts currently are:
  1. Do nothing beyond the odd minor tweak;
  2. Nerf the hell out of them;
  3. Throw the entire algorithm away and start again, probably at the same time doing a rethink of the standard artifacts, ego items and possibly the combat system (as foreshadowed here).

Discuss
__________________
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
Nick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11, 2021, 00:27   #19
Pete Mack
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,587
Donated: $40
Pete Mack is on a distinguished road
The trouble is that the distribution of facets goes across equipment types for randarts, while they are limited by equipment type in the base randarts. In particular, you can get fantastic resistances on bows, lights, and gloves, which really opens up possibilities. Not to mention extra blows, slays, or movement on just about anything.
Pete Mack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 11, 2021, 07:10   #20
Mondkalb
Knight
 
Mondkalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 974
Mondkalb is on a distinguished road
Randarts can also have loughable outcomes like stuff with nothing but one bonus to an attribute or one resistance.
Also, the rings are usually not so good as the elven rings, often they lack ESP or speed.

But I am not complaining!
There are often nice surpirises like immunities or speed on other items. It usually is just another mini game of shuffling around gear than with standard artifacts.

Still, it could be interesting to alos have ego powers shuffled.
Mondkalb is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Randarts vs Standarts? Ingwe Ingweron Vanilla 26 June 13, 2013 19:57


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:44.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.