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Old May 3, 2011, 12:07   #11
Timo Pietilš
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSK View Post
4) I don't see how "Half-Orcs" and "Half-Trolls" (as characters or monsters) fit into the universe. My understanding is that Orcs are creations of Sauron that have no real will of their own and really can't be bred to other creatures of free will, even if those creatures would want to mate with Orcs.
Orcs are "creation" of Melkor. He used elves and corrupted them (not extremely solid point, Tolkien might have changed that to humans at some point, but consensus is that they are basically corrupted elves). They are living in real sense and breed just like any other humanoid do. In theory they are immortals like elves, but because of their nature average lifespan is not very high.

In LoTR Saruman created half-orcs by cross-breeding humans with orcs. Those orcs that captured Merry and Pippin and could tolerate sunlight were half-orcs, and that sneaky person in the Branching Pony was probably a one quarter orc, so they are supported by source.

Half-trolls OTOH are not. There is no mention whatsoever about half-trolls, just that there are different kinds of trolls.
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Old May 3, 2011, 14:10   #12
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Originally Posted by Nick View Post
I created FAangband partly to address things like this. I don't believe Vanilla will (or even should) ever become completely Tolkienian.

My feeling on this is that if you were making a list of monsters for potential removal, the highest up should be things from other Mythologies/Religions - the obvious ones being the classical stuff (Atlas, Medusa, etc) and angels. Things that are completely made up (like Waldern) seem fine to me - there are hints in Tolkien's works of all sorts of other creatures which just don't happen to come into any of the main storylines.

Also, that's a pretty big if
Sorry to have opened that can of worms then. I did it because I thought the thread suggested a Tolkienization of V. Whatever--it's cool, you are right there are too many things from other mythologies to clean up which would create the need for major revision I suppose--but a few things might be easily merely name-substituted (such as Ainur for certain things like Angels as suggested above by Myshkin).

As for Melkor and Sauron--I totally agree it makes sense for them to hang because of their relationship in the 1st age. What makes less sense is things purely from the 3rd age and things only in the 1st age coexisting, e.g. Morgoth himself was not around into the late ages while we have Nazgķl and items like Anduril and Evenstar which would not have existed in the 1st age (but again, too much trouble to clean this up). Sorry.

Will stick to issues of language, typos, grammar, description, etc.
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Old May 3, 2011, 15:50   #13
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On Uniques..

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Originally Posted by SSK View Post
Hi Myshkin
5) If we are going Tolkien, not sure where Angels (including Uniques), knights Templar, Ninjas, Dagashi, and the like fit into all this. Similarly Uniques Like Ariel, Quaker, Waldern. I remember seeing on another thread certain people felt there were too many uniques already anyway... In any event, there must be characters not represented that could be included as uniques if replacements were needed. Of course these might not be natural but evil (whcih is why we are fighting them, but could be a game balance issue).

I would agree that the letter 'A' could be re-assigned entirely to a new breed of dungeon-loving creature. In the least, if you want to follow Tolkien-esque naming, you could resort the "Ainur" (Before the Creation, God made the Ainur or "Holy Ones". ) They would be the equivalent of the angel concept in Tolkien's realm.... as they were the ones to overthrow Morgoth originally. And, indeed, you could pull from them uniques, if really needed. But, I think you could reclassify the whole 'A'ngel class with something more akin to dungeon creatures.

As is, I have had games where demons U's and A's were in the same room, both teaming up on that '@' symbol. If Angels were truly there to seek out/destroy evil, one would think a war of great magnitude would occur with both in the same room.

If one could conceive a D&D type mob, there are several plausible candidates there. Just peruse the Monster Manual.
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Old May 3, 2011, 17:11   #14
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Was just pondering if you could use 'A' to represent those wild-men Sauron was calling up from the south.. the Haradrim and such...
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Old May 3, 2011, 21:58   #15
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Hm? Those two dudes loved to hang out in the First Age!
Oops. My impression was that they never holed up together, but it does seem that they spent some time in Angband after the return of Morgoth. As noted elsewhere, though, if we're constrained to that time, then the Second and Third Age people and items become problematic.
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Old May 3, 2011, 22:22   #16
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I think it's pretty clear that Tolkein is being used as inspiration, not setting -- unless you're playing FAAngband of course. D&D's also an inspiration, and arguably a bigger one.
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Old May 4, 2011, 16:08   #17
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I think it's pretty clear that Tolkein is being used as inspiration, not setting -- unless you're playing FAAngband of course. D&D's also an inspiration, and arguably a bigger one.
What, you don't remember Gandalf casting Magic Missile on the Balrog? Or Pippin finding the Palantir via Detect Treasure?
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Old May 4, 2011, 17:00   #18
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Since the link doesn't go directly to it:

Tolkien and his poor writing

by Chris Kern

It seems that Tolkien has not thought very clearly before writing his books. He really needs to think things through before even putting pen to paper. Some examples:
Beren goes through all the trouble of having Luthien put Morgoth to sleep, sneaking in, etc. All he has to do is read some glyph of warding scrolls and shoot him with some bolts. He should have found some if he went down to level 100 of Angband. And how did he get down so low with only Angrist? This story is obviously not well thought out.
Hurin manages to slay Mim, and the story makes to mention of his stuff getting disenchanted. I guess mabye he didn't have magical things, but Tolkien could have given us a little clue.
According to Unfinished Tales, in the final days before Hurin's capture he would not wear his iron helm. Why the hell not? Didn't he notice when he put it on there was magic light and he suddenly could see all the monsters around him? No wonder he got captured.
Gothmog fails to summon anything in his fight with Echtelion, even though there is no mention of an anti-summoning corridor.
Turin somehow manages to use Mormegil, with its huge minuses, to off Glaurung in one blow. I don't think so. Glaurung also has "Gothmog syndrome" when he doesn't summon any ancient dragons. "Father of Dragons" indeed.
Excuse me, Mr. Tolkien, it's "Mugash" not "Muzgash", and he's a kobold, not an orc. Geez.
It is impossible for Bard to kill Smaug with one arrow using the Long Bow of Bard, unless our redoutable human has hacked the source code. One wonders exactly what the "black arrow" is.
This could be attributed to luck, but while in Moria the party manages to completely avoid the Evil Iggy. Gandalf also uses an unorthodox strategy of beating the Balrog which involves no invulnerability potions.
Okay, I thought Gandalf was supposed to be honorable. But he had cheat death on! Glorfindel also uses cheats.
Is Samwise Gamgee at some kind of negative level? Sting provides at least 3 attacks, but he only makes two seperate swipes against Shelob. Also, Shelob exhibits "Gothmog Syndrome" when she fails to summon even one spider.
Okay...how did Aragorn turn a Broken Sword into Anarion? The book mentions "forging". Nice euphemism for "hacking"; he obviously went to the Forge of Hex Editing. I think he took cheating lessons from Gandalf.
Gandalf was putting on a show for the Fellowship. With Narya and its immunity to fire, he had nothing to fear from Muar. He obviously had some ulterior motive, probably to cover up the fact that his Cheat Death option is on.
Beren somehow gets the Iron Crown of Morgoth even though he doesn't slay the evil fiend. There's some heavy duty cheating going on here....
Tolkien overestimates the power of the One Ring. Sorry, but "Control Ringwraith", "Resurrection", and "Rule the World" are not innate powers of the ring, nor are they in the list of "Bizarre Things" that it activates for. Perhaps Tolkien misread the spoilers?
After slaying Muar, Gandalf does not pick up Calris. (Or maybe he didn't read the spoilers to find out that it was good; although this is unlikely given his other cheating.)
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Old May 5, 2011, 13:05   #19
ulrichvonbek
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Aren't Uruk-hai half orcs & Olog-hai half trolls?
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