Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Development

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old June 2, 2011, 02:00   #21
Zababa
Apprentice
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Germany
Age: 38
Posts: 99
Zababa is on a distinguished road
Thumbs up

I was happy to read what the Angband dev team has responded. I am also very excited about the current development roadmap.

Maybe there is some experimenting going on with the game balance (not noticeable to me, I still haven't won the game), but I have the impression that the Angband's code is becoming cleaner and easier to handle, which is more important in my oppinion.

It will be much easier to tweak the game balance once the game code is written in a way that when you need to change/tweak something, there will be ideally only one place where you need to do it.

Although I haven't had a single look into Angband's code I imagine that after all the years of "maintenance" and "bugfixing", people had been adding many things to the same code framework, adding them one by one, over long periods of time. While they may have seen parallels in the micro-structure of the code, they never actually cared about coding the abstract thing in one place and refer to it in the concrete cases where it is used. Instead, the same (or similar) thing was programmed for each case individually. (So, for instance, we ended up with two kinds of behavior of spells affecting the gear: Enchanting waits for you to choose what to enchant (as does identifying), but Removing curse does not.) It's things like these, just more internal to the game, they may not have any effect on the UI at all, but all such things which have something in common, should refer to and make use of one piece of code.

I love the milestone of separating the core game code and the UI. It is a lot of work which may not have any immediately visible impact, yet it should make it significantly easier for the future, when something of the UI should get changed/unified. Porting to handheld's, portables, Pads, etc. should be mainly just some cosmetic work on the UI, no need to work through the whole code.

So far I can see that Angband's current dev team has the best intentions to make a clean and well organized code for the future. There is supposedly a lot of mess which needs to be cleaned up. Some game balance issues which may have arisen are really peanuts in comparison to the actual work these guys do. As said, a clean and well-structured code is essential for easy balancing work. Nobody will try to tweak something in the game it would require to work through 60% of the game code. But if it's just modifying the values of the arguments for some funtction in a place, it will be a piece of cake.
Zababa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2, 2011, 02:34   #22
Nick
Vanilla maintainer
 
Nick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canberra, Australia
Age: 54
Posts: 7,645
Donated: $60
Nick is on a distinguished road
I made a flippant response to this yesterday, which is better forgotten - here's a more considered one.

The big different thing that takkaria has done as maintainer is to change from single maintainer to devteam. The big advantage is that there are now several smart, keen programmers working (apparently almost full time) on Angband.

This doesn't come without difficulties, though. These include:
  • Probably only takkaria in the devteam has good understanding of the entire codebase, which leads to bugs due to unforeseen consequences of changes. These usually get cleared up fairly quickly; also, the code is gradually becoming more modular, so changing stuff locally without effects elsewhere should be easier.
  • It's easier to avoid doing the boring stuff in the belief that someone else will do it; happily, almost every task is considered non-boring by someone.
  • Changes can be happening on several fronts at once, which looks chaotic; moreover, sometimes these changes sometimes interact in unexpected ways.
  • Smart, keen programmers tend to be batshit crazy.

There were a lot of things that needed modernising, improving, or just changing, and a lot of it is all being done at once. While I can see the difficulties with that, I thnk it's much better than having a drawn out change process. It's been chaotic for a while, and will be for a while longer, but I think the aim is to get the game into a state where it is more robust and stable.

So I agree with Timo that the game is improving, but I also think that with the amount that needs changing, fast is the right speed.
__________________
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
Nick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2, 2011, 02:38   #23
Antoine
Ironband/Quickband Maintainer
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,008
Antoine is on a distinguished road
It will be helpful to bear a few things in mind:
- need to think very seriously before making a gameplay change which makes the game easier (ego-DSMs, offweapon art +blows/shots)
- need to think very seriously before changing an aspect of gameplay that has been around for a long time (pointy penalty)
- need to be cautious about introducing a significant gameplay change without prior announcement or discussion (Destruction destroys arts, which i think is what set Timo off in the first place).

A.
__________________
Ironband - http://angband.oook.cz/ironband/
Antoine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2, 2011, 04:44   #24
AnonymousHero
Veteran
 
AnonymousHero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,367
AnonymousHero is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antoine View Post
It will be helpful to bear a few things in mind:
- need to think very seriously before making a gameplay change which makes the game easier (ego-DSMs, offweapon art +blows/shots)
- need to think very seriously before changing an aspect of gameplay that has been around for a long time (pointy penalty)
- need to be cautious about introducing a significant gameplay change without prior announcement or discussion (Destruction destroys arts, which i think is what set Timo off in the first place).
I think you may be underestimating how easy it is to predict whether change X "makes the game easier" or simply "adds flavour". There are some obvious ones, like the +blows you mention, but if my understanding is correct this was the indirect result of a broken randart power evaluation calculation -- so it's not like someone decided to explicitly add off-weapon blows for the heck of it.
AnonymousHero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2, 2011, 04:49   #25
Antoine
Ironband/Quickband Maintainer
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,008
Antoine is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonymousHero View Post
I think you may be underestimating how easy it is to predict whether change X "makes the game easier" or simply "adds flavour". There are some obvious ones, like the +blows you mention, but if my understanding is correct this was the indirect result of a broken randart power evaluation calculation -- so it's not like someone decided to explicitly add off-weapon blows for the heck of it.
I'm sure you're right that it is not easy to determine whether a change makes the game easier (this in itself is a reason for caution, right?)

Re off-weapon blows, I think we are talking about different incidents - I was referring to the change to various fixed arts (like Haradrim), which was intentional but has now been largely reverted.

A.
__________________
Ironband - http://angband.oook.cz/ironband/
Antoine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2, 2011, 04:59   #26
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 8,795
Derakon is on a distinguished road
As far as I know, Haradrim's had the extra blow on it ever since it was first created, back before Takkaria took over. It's been unbalanced for years.
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2, 2011, 05:15   #27
Antoine
Ironband/Quickband Maintainer
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,008
Antoine is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
As far as I know, Haradrim's had the extra blow on it ever since it was first created, back before Takkaria took over. It's been unbalanced for years.
My mistake sorry - was it the extra shot that was added (and reverted) more recently?

Anyway, my point is that some kinds of changes are more palatable than others. (Of course you well understand that already.)

A.
__________________
Ironband - http://angband.oook.cz/ironband/
Antoine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2, 2011, 10:03   #28
Timo Pietilš
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Climbing up from hole I just dug.
Posts: 4,096
Timo Pietilš is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
Things I can remember getting annoyed at recently:
You can't set colors for monster resists or monster dies to messages.prf. And that the file even exists is a secret known to few.
The K key is documented nowhere.
Flush keys on disturb becoming required broke a lot of my favorite macros, like m1a5'\e .
Caves are annoying to search, needs either easier lighting or a change to the run code.
!CLW and CSW are too common in the dungeon and too rare in the shop.
There is the annoying bug I reported about the Alt Gr stuff.
(without thinking much).

Editing visuals (saving and editing at different places)
Also editing visuals doesn't allow editing all visuals, for example
# Permanent rock (dark red : solid block)
#F:60:all:4:127
F:60:dark:0x12:0x02
F:60:lit:0x16:0x02
F:60:bright:0x12:0x02


was possible only from pref-files (blue permanent walls instead of red, and walls that are highlighted by torch lite lighter shade of blue than rest).

Keymap 5 doesn't do anything unless you have numlock on.
I think the overhead screen blinking with monster that changes color is in view is still unfixed.
Documentation. Especially inscriptions, keymaps and pref-file syntax.
Is it just me or did the dungeon got smaller with new dungeon generation? A lot smaller? Which means more boring levels.
Healing potions not in the temple, but in the alchemist. Heroism still in temple, and not in alchemist.
Looking at the artifact.txt and object.txt I see that Elessar is made useless (Trickery is better in every way) and many of the artifacts have been weakened (rings of power, gauntlets), rendering especially top artifact gauntlets inferior to good ego-gauntlets and rings of power inferior to damage/speed rings. OTOH Haradrim still offers extra blow and many weapon artifacts speed, and Paurnimmen still has weapon branding.

(haven't played dev version much because my macros don't work properly in there).
Timo Pietilš is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2, 2011, 10:24   #29
Timo Pietilš
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Climbing up from hole I just dug.
Posts: 4,096
Timo Pietilš is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
As far as I know, Haradrim's had the extra blow on it ever since it was first created, back before Takkaria took over. It's been unbalanced for years.
No, first incarnation (2.9.4) had only

F:ACTIVATE |
F:STR | CON | SUST_STR | SUST_CON | HIDE_TYPE |
F:RES_FEAR | RES_BLIND | RES_POIS | AGGRAVATE
A:BERSERKER:50:0


And no combat bonuses.
combat bonuses, blows and shots have been inserted as recently as in version 3.1.2 (not yet in 3.1.1, but in at 3.1.2).
Timo Pietilš is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2, 2011, 10:46   #30
Timo Pietilš
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Climbing up from hole I just dug.
Posts: 4,096
Timo Pietilš is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by takkaria View Post
OK, so this is a joint response from the devteam.
I guessed that you wont agree with me. It was worth saying I think, maybe it did raise some concern about what is happening. If it did, then I consider this as success.

Back to figuring out how to clear -more- prompts with keymaps....
Timo Pietilš is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
(Hopefully) useful code snippet modifies "]" command to highlight unidentified items Max Stats Vanilla 31 January 11, 2011 21:12
"Great" drops replaced by "good" drops in vaults: bug or feature? PowerWyrm Vanilla 14 February 27, 2010 15:54
"repeat" Command just little bit "smarter" ClaytonAguiar Vanilla 8 June 17, 2009 15:01
Cheers to V's recent development Donald Jonker Vanilla 2 May 18, 2009 22:45
Question about "special" feelings Neuro Vanilla 9 June 23, 2008 22:37


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:15.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.