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Old August 23, 2011, 22:26   #41
Blue Baron
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Originally Posted by Nick View Post
With a minor tweak to the numbers, you have re-invented the Oangband resistance system. Nice work! It took Bahman a few attempts
Really? from earlier posts, it seemed like the Oangband has numbers in the item information. Anyways, good, I thought that might be an additional step away from the tested system the dev team prefers.
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Old August 24, 2011, 07:07   #42
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Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
As it stands, the random higher resists currently reduce damage to:

* light and dark: 4/12 to 4/7 (33 - 57%)
* sound (and previously confusion): 5/12 to 5/7 (42 - 71%)
* chaos, disen, nexus, shards, nether: 6/12 to 6/7 (50 - 85%)

Rather than any major reworking of the resist system, to begin with I would propose just fixing those values to:

* light, dark, sound: 1/2
* chaos, disen, nexus, shards, nether: 2/3

I think that would do a lot to simplify the situation without (in theory) having much visible effect on gameplay.
Yes it does, because you don't use average damage in estimating monster deadliness, you use maximum damage. Closer to what it is now would be

* light, dark, sound 5/7.
* chaos, disen, nexus, shards, nether: 6/7.

If you can count on much less damage you weaken those elements a lot. Make them irrelevant with resist. This changes gameplay significantly.
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Old August 24, 2011, 07:30   #43
Timo Pietilš
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Originally Posted by Blue Baron View Post
Just leave equipment as is, then count and store the number of a resist flag and use something like the following table to get the damage reduction.
1 - 35% (+35)

with this:
1 permanent is close to current (35%)
This is wrong, currently single resist counts for 66%. You would be forcing people to use two or more resists for each basic four elements.

Start with 66% and then count down with maybe some logarithmic calculation each additional resist halving the remaining damage.

66 - 83 - 92 - 96 - 98 - 99 - 100. Temp resist count as one of those.

This still makes extra permanent resist too strong which results in change in gameplay.

How about removing double resists completely? Or make basic four also variable resist with max damage close to 550 with resist with double-resist doubling the count? Something like dam / (1d7+2) with double then being that twice: dam/ 2*(1d7+2): at best dam/6 which is more than currently and at worst dam/18 which is (much) less than currently.

I think the problem people have here is that they get used to fixed heavy damage reduction with basic 4 with very predictable results and then experience less predictable results with high elements. If you have variable resist from the start, then that problem goes away.
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Old August 24, 2011, 13:28   #44
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How about removing double resists completely? Or make basic four also variable resist with max damage close to 550 with resist with double-resist doubling the count? Something like dam / (1d7+2) with double then being that twice: dam/ 2*(1d7+2): at best dam/6 which is more than currently and at worst dam/18 which is (much) less than currently.

I think the problem people have here is that they get used to fixed heavy damage reduction with basic 4 with very predictable results and then experience less predictable results with high elements. If you have variable resist from the start, then that problem goes away.

You complain that I want to change the game too much but you suggest doubling the effectiveness of basic resists. You complain about high resists not being effective but complain when someone suggests chaging them.

With the change you suggest the average max damage fireball would be 233!! You just halved the damage of every breather in game. Yes you have to be prepared for max damage but when it doesn't happen you are already prepared for the next one.
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Old August 24, 2011, 14:20   #45
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Originally Posted by buzzkill View Post
Independent of other changes, what about removing the damage cap and instead somehow basing max damage on raw numbers (an equation involving HP's and native depth maybe).
I like this idea, but it may be difficult to implement without big monster changes. For example, Ancalagon currently breathes the cap until he's down below half hitpoints. A formula without a cap would AFAICS mean either making him considerably more dangerous at the start, or start losing power immediately. But maybe the latter is OK, come to think of it.

So, I like the idea and will think more about it's feasibility
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Old August 24, 2011, 15:16   #46
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Originally Posted by Jungle_Boy View Post
You complain that I want to change the game too much but you suggest doubling the effectiveness of basic resists. You complain about high resists not being effective but complain when someone suggests chaging them.

With the change you suggest the average max damage fireball would be 233!!
Average damage is not the same as max damage. Maximum damage is still high, same as it was previously in fact, and that is what really counts. When you have less HP than max damage you might receive you either bail out or heal.

I didn't complain that high resist are ineffective, I complained that someone wanted to change them to be fixed and effective. Big difference.
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Old August 24, 2011, 23:09   #47
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Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
Average damage is not the same as max damage. Maximum damage is still high, same as it was previously in fact, and that is what really counts. When you have less HP than max damage you might receive you either bail out or heal.
I know this but what about the situation where you have 900 hp, currently you can take one fireball, then you have to bail or heal. In your system that one fireball is over 70% likely to only hit for 320 points or less meaning you will not have to heal or bail after the first fireball. You may not even need to heal after the second fireball. The max damage is still possible so yes, you need to maintain at least 533 hp but the ability of monsters to get you down to that point is drastically lowered in your system.
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Old August 25, 2011, 00:38   #48
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You complain that I want to change the game too much but you suggest doubling the effectiveness of basic resists. You complain about high resists not being effective but complain when someone suggests chaging them.
Ha yes even Timo can't resist tinkering

Bring on Timoband

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Old August 25, 2011, 02:11   #49
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Originally Posted by Nick View Post
I like this idea, but it may be difficult to implement without big monster changes. For example, Ancalagon currently breathes the cap until he's down below half hitpoints. A formula without a cap would AFAICS mean either making him considerably more dangerous at the start, or start losing power immediately. But maybe the latter is OK, come to think of it.
Yeah, I hadn't put much thought into it, but despite that, came to the same conclusion. Initially, breathers would have to be more powerful in order to maintain balance (not make them weaker).

If I knew more about HP numbers and Native Depth numbers I throw together a spreadsheet and plug in some numbers, but I don't (and I've got full faith is your ability to do a better job than I).
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Old August 25, 2011, 06:09   #50
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Originally Posted by Jungle_Boy View Post
I know this but what about the situation where you have 900 hp, currently you can take one fireball, then you have to bail or heal. In your system that one fireball is over 70% likely to only hit for 320 points or less meaning you will not have to heal or bail after the first fireball. You may not even need to heal after the second fireball. The max damage is still possible so yes, you need to maintain at least 533 hp but the ability of monsters to get you down to that point is drastically lowered in your system.
There are only few monsters that are anywhere near dangerous with basic four elements once you have resist, so this doesn't actually change that much.

I made double-resist weaker. With double resist max you can get currently is 177 points of damage, everyone except warriors get the double-resist against fire and cold, and all arcane magic users get it for everything. That is what really changes there.

With my system there is a flat change of 2/6 that you get more than that (266 and 228) and 1/6 that is is just slightly less (160). So what really changes is warriors, which now have better survival against things with single resist and things that breathe lightning at full strength (Ancalagon only?) or near full strength (GStormW, GWoMC) for priests and paladins because acid gets halved by armor and poison has smaller cap anyway, so once you have the resist for those two they become irrelevant.

Basic 4 is more like a aggravation for most cases. If you haven't got it you are toast. If you have it (the element) it became irrelevant for adventuring.

If you want to make that a bit less powerful change we can change the way monster breaths are calculated, maybe divide HP by two instead of three to get max breath power.

Then maybe basic four as a resist becomes relevant before you meet AMHD, that is the first monster that is truly dangerous with all basic element breaths, and it still isn't getting max even for poison. With current way of handling basic 4 & poison are the problematic elements, not the high elements.

Problem as I see it is that basic four are pretty much like free action, a binary system. If you have them the thing it affects becomes irrelevant, if you don't that thing kills you. High elements stay interesting with resists and are survivable without, so there is no problem.
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