Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Development

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old November 14, 2011, 21:27   #11
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,057
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by nppangband View Post
My only question is, what happens if there is not a consensus? Who decides? Somebody has to fill that role & be the game visionary. Otherwise Angband just becomes several variants all rolled up in the same executable(d_mband, fizzixband, magnateband...etc). Of course those sound like fun variants with plenty of good ideas, but it wouldn't be Angband either.
Well this was the debate we had about whether we needed a titular maintainer or not. One side of the debate made exactly your point - that without a figurehead, someone to whom the rest agreed to defer on these decisions, we would be unable to have that vision. The other side of the debate argued that operating by consensus could extend to the vision for the game - that decisions on which of my/fizzix's/d_m's great ideas should go in and which should stay in v4 could be made as a team, rather than by one individual. Eventually we ended up agreeing to give the latter approach a try. That doesn't mean your point isn't valid, just that we felt we would be able to work around it as a team operating by consensus.

P.S. I should have added to my previous post that one of the reason's there's been a coding hiatus is because we're trying to get the APW borg working for v4, after APW kindly pushed the code to github. Having a borg will make it *much* easier to find and fix bugs in v4 (which is going to have way more bugs than V).

EDIT: I realise that I didn't address your point about what if there isn't a consensus. I think the conclusion of our debate was that a consensus can be "agreeing to disagree". So even if some of us want a change to go in and others don't, we can reach agreement one way or the other.
__________________
"3.4 is much better than 3.1, 3.2 or 3.3. It still is easier than 3.0.9, but it is more convenient to play without being ridiculously easy, so it is my new favorite of the versions." - Timo Pietila

Last edited by Magnate; November 14, 2011 at 21:39.
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 14, 2011, 22:49   #12
takkaria
Veteran
 
takkaria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,923
Donated: $40
takkaria is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by nppangband View Post
My only question is, what happens if there is not a consensus? Who decides? Somebody has to fill that role & be the game visionary. Otherwise Angband just becomes several variants all rolled up in the same executable(d_mband, fizzixband, magnateband...etc). Of course those sound like fun variants with plenty of good ideas, but it wouldn't be Angband either.
Since I proposed the idea I feel like I should defend it. I think V should move at the pace of the slowest voice. If the developers don't have workable consensus on an issue, it doesn't move forward. I think this fits the fundamentally conservative nature of V. There is the pressure from the community to the development team that means the development team is not going to have consensus that e.g. introducing Steam Mecha or a wilderness is a good thing for V, if they would ever have thought it anyway.

I don't think it needs a maintainer's grand vision - certainly, the only release I had a strong vision for was 3.1.x. We had a few all-devteam meetings to work out what we wanted to do for 3.3 (I don't remember what happened with 3.2). Everyone gives their input, and collectively we figured something out. The same process eventually gave rise to the announcement of v4. So the consensus process has been working for a while already, just behind the scenes. I guess my resignation just brings it to the fore.
__________________
takkaria whispers something about options. -more-
takkaria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 15, 2011, 07:09   #13
Timo Pietilš
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Climbing up from hole I just dug.
Posts: 4,096
Timo Pietilš is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by takkaria View Post
I don't think it needs a maintainer's grand vision - certainly, the only release I had a strong vision for was 3.1.x. We had a few all-devteam meetings to work out what we wanted to do for 3.3 (I don't remember what happened with 3.2).
For some reason I feel that 3.1 was the last real release of the game and subsequent releases have all been "work in progress" -beta versions. I guess I now know why I felt that way. 3.2 and 3.3 were a bit sloppy versions, too many changes that had to be reversed and again many changes that no-one had time to really playtest and understand how they affected the big picture.

"Dev team" does too fast job. There are changes coming in every which way without real testing. This leads to chaos and I just plain can't trust that they make a good team to control the development of the game. There should be also players, not coders into ranks of "dev team", and ultimately it should be the community that makes the final decision. This has been seen, even with single maintainer community vote overrules the choice if it is too controversial.

I'm all for fast changes if there is need for fast change, but when there is something completely new then it just plain takes time to see the complete picture. Like introducing add-one, lose-one potion, which in turn changed importance of nexus resist quite badly. I don't think no-one considered that side-effect before it had changed to "fixed feature" of the game. Not that it was bad change, it just has unseen side-effect. These unseen side-effects happen in almost any change. Everything affects everything.

Something small, like change in how rarities were calculated: as side-effect many earlier very rare artifacts were now just rare, not very rare. No-one really understood why, because that change came in without testing, or even discussion should that be done and what are the potential effects of the change. It took really long time before people started to realize that while still being rarest possible, artifacts like The One Ring and Ringil were now a lot less rare and it wasn't just changes in artifact.txt, TMJ -fight or other game changes that caused that.

Test everything. Discuss. Not only between yourself and with terms of code. Include community. There needs to be human-readable explanation of the change. Reasons why and what are the consequences. What else needs to be changed in order to make it work, and what are the consequences of that and so on.
Timo Pietilš is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 15, 2011, 09:55   #14
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,057
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
I think it's really quite difficult to do this. It's often very hard to explain changes which are quite small, and impossible to know all the side effects of changes of any size. And it's not usually the case that we make changes which haven't been discussed - it's more that we subsequently have an idea for implementing a change which has already been debated in one or more threads.

Your examples - the gain-one-lose-one potions and the change to artifact rarities - are perfect illustrations of why we created v4. In many cases it's not possible to know how a change will play out until it's tried, however much it is explained and discussed. So v4 allows this to happen without any damage to V, and it means that changes will only go through into V when their full implications are understood by people who have tested them.

Non-coders are very welcome to join the devteam - there are a number of non-coding jobs that need doing:
- testing
- stats generation and analysis
- help text
- flavour text
- ticket management
- PR
- release management (requires ability to compile but not code)
__________________
"3.4 is much better than 3.1, 3.2 or 3.3. It still is easier than 3.0.9, but it is more convenient to play without being ridiculously easy, so it is my new favorite of the versions." - Timo Pietila
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 15, 2011, 16:27   #15
Antoine
Ironband/Quickband Maintainer
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,008
Antoine is on a distinguished road
> I think it's really quite difficult to do this.

True but it's probably still an ideal to keep in mind.

> Your examples - the gain-one-lose-one potions and the change to artifact rarities - are perfect illustrations of why we created v4. In many cases it's not possible to know how a change will play out until it's tried

Just so. Of course a change that is bugfree / OK for game balance in v4 may not be in V... but it's a good place to start.

A.
__________________
Ironband - http://angband.oook.cz/ironband/
Antoine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 15, 2011, 18:45   #16
Djabanete
Knight
 
Djabanete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Berkeley, CA
Posts: 545
Djabanete is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
- flavour text
I'm interested --- perhaps you could kindly point me in the right direction?
Djabanete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 15, 2011, 18:53   #17
fizzix
Prophet
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, US
Posts: 3,002
fizzix is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djabanete View Post
I'm interested --- perhaps you could kindly point me in the right direction?
Look in the edit files. Descriptions of weapons and armor. Updated descriptions of artifacts. Better descriptions of spells and spell effects. All these can be done without compiling anything.
fizzix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 15, 2011, 19:29   #18
Djabanete
Knight
 
Djabanete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Berkeley, CA
Posts: 545
Djabanete is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
Look in the edit files. Descriptions of weapons and armor. Updated descriptions of artifacts. Better descriptions of spells and spell effects. All these can be done without compiling anything.
OK, I can work with the edit files easily enough (version 3.3.0, yes?), but I'm not sure where to direct any efforts --- is it a question of certain things lacking flavor text and needing text written in, or is it a question of just going around looking for things to improve? And if it comes to "improving" things, are there any guidelines?

If it's just a total sandbox I don't really mind --- it's just that I wouldn't want to cancel out someone else's efforts or otherwise be counterproductive. Thanks!

Edit: Oh I see now that some weapons are completely lacking descriptions. I suppose it couldn't hurt to do some of those.
Djabanete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 15, 2011, 19:38   #19
Shockbolt
Knight
 
Shockbolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Norway
Posts: 632
Shockbolt is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Shockbolt
What would PR involve?
__________________
http://www.rpgartkits.com/
Fantasy art kits for personal and commercial use. Commercial use requires a Developer license, also available through my website.
Shockbolt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 15, 2011, 22:22   #20
fizzix
Prophet
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, US
Posts: 3,002
fizzix is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djabanete View Post

If it's just a total sandbox I don't really mind --- it's just that I wouldn't want to cancel out someone else's efforts or otherwise be counterproductive. Thanks!
I've rewritten some of them for v4, but I don't think they've been included in vanilla. I'm not attached to them, and I think that if you were to write an improved set for vanilla, I'd be fine overwriting the descriptions I've made for v4.

In generals it's probably always best to use the most recent version of the code. In this case, it means downloading a nightly version from rephial.org
fizzix is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:08.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.