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Old January 12, 2012, 12:14   #21
LostTemplar
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I play it as artifactless ironman and it seems ok, even easyer then artifacless ironman in angband.
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Old January 12, 2012, 12:28   #22
Scatha
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Originally Posted by LostTemplar View Post
I play it as artifactless ironman and it seems ok, even easyer then artifacless ironman in angband.
Interesting. The artefacts aren't actually all that powerful in Sil, perhaps typically just a little bit better than a good standard piece of equipment. To my view the main benefit is that they add interest and variety, so it's possible that you'd have more fun playing with artefacts on as I think the extra challenge here is minimal.

On the other hand playing with only down stairs seems like it will make things quite a lot tougher! I'd guess at least as hard as taking a Sindarin or Dwarf character (the non-Noldor races should in some sense be regarded as challenge modes).
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Old January 12, 2012, 17:34   #23
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Something is definitely going wrong at this point. You shouldn't have to flee as much as that. Do try a high Dex, high melee, high evasion character to get the hang of it. Once you get even a Curved Sword and Leather Armour, you should be able to beat most early creatures.
I was exaggerating a bit on how often I use them to flee, but I could see it getting to that point if I survived to run away longer.
I've been using High Dex/melee/evasion characters since you first told me that, and I got slightly further using them than I did before (as you saw in my last Mudpie dump).
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Old January 14, 2012, 20:10   #24
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Thumbs up

I must admit that this thread was my first hint that Sil even exists, but so far I can only say that I love it. Maybe it's because The Silmarillion is one of my favorite books, maybe it's because it seems so much grittier and more deadly than Angband...

It's a tough game and I'm still learning but I just had my most successful character (made it to 800'!) It's probably just as well that he died, he was on his last torch (500 turns) and had been hungry for about three floors and eating herbs of rage to keep rolling.

Also, breath weapons are nasty, as is poison.

It seems to me that the key to Sil is the saying, "discretion is the better part of valor". Which, might I add, if I were invading Morgoth's home turf, would probably be good advice.

Two thumbs up.

(ETA: dump is up! http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=12299)

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Old January 19, 2012, 08:39   #25
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So after some experimentation and many, many, many, many deaths, I thought I would post again on this thread. I've come to the conclusion that you just end up throwing away a lot of characters in Sil. Skill has something to do with success, perhaps, but plain old dumb luck (usually bad) prematurely ends a lot of characters.

Maybe it's a case of easy come, easy go. The time investment in the thirty or so that I kill off before one lucks out and lives past the beginning is fairly low, so maybe I don't mind so much. Hit a crebain trap and get pounded by thirty blinding, hard-hitting birds? Reroll and off we go again. Surrounded by orcs while desperately running for the stairs? Reroll. Run down by wolves? Reroll. And so on. The beginning kind of sucks, because your character sucks and therefore dies a lot.

I will acknowledge that it is a bit frustrating to lose a character that was going well, but this is not unlike Angband in general.
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Old January 19, 2012, 12:26   #26
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So after some experimentation and many, many, many, many deaths, I thought I would post again on this thread. I've come to the conclusion that you just end up throwing away a lot of characters in Sil. Skill has something to do with success, perhaps, but plain old dumb luck (usually bad) prematurely ends a lot of characters.

Maybe it's a case of easy come, easy go. The time investment in the thirty or so that I kill off before one lucks out and lives past the beginning is fairly low, so maybe I don't mind so much. Hit a crebain trap and get pounded by thirty blinding, hard-hitting birds? Reroll and off we go again. Surrounded by orcs while desperately running for the stairs? Reroll. Run down by wolves? Reroll. And so on. The beginning kind of sucks, because your character sucks and therefore dies a lot.
From my experience I think there is a bit of truth in this, but it's not nearly so extreme as you suggest. If I'm playing a combat-oriented Noldor, I think perhaps 80% of my characters reach 500ft, and some of those that die needn't have done. Of course sometimes you do just have bad luck, but I would guess that quite a few of the deaths you mention are avoidable -- but perhaps you're not sufficiently invested in the character at that stage to be careful about avoiding them.

Sometimes I try a character who should have a good mid-to-late game, but hasn't yet got their skills/abilities/equipment together and is a bit weak on combat, and then I admit that I tend to burn through a few more in the early game, but even then it's nothing like thirty-to-one.
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Old January 19, 2012, 12:48   #27
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I think part of the issue is that Angband lets you become very powerful compared to your enemies, so you can tend to roll over them in the early game. It is also more forgiving of most early game mistakes through teleportation (it might be less forgiving on balance in the late game). Sil forces you to mostly play at a level where things are tough for you and more thought or care is required to survive. I like that. It would probably be too much for a game of the length of Angband, but Sil is much shorter to play (it has 20% of the levels and I think it requires less than 20% of the time). It is therefore a more focused and intense roguelike -- something that may not be for everyone.
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Old January 19, 2012, 14:19   #28
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The first major lesson I learned in Sil is that I had to find a survivable balance. Sil provides all these sexy special abilities, and I'm like, ooh I want that. And, oh yes, I need that. And I want that and that and that! You have to be able sustain life with what you choose. For example, an awesome sword you crafted that cost most of your startup experience isn't going to be worth too much if you can't hit anything with it and you constantly get hit by monsters.

I think it's a testament to how finely balanced Sil is that I spent probably 5 hours making characters trying to find a way to game-the-system, and ultimately failed. In regular angband and variants I *always* make what is now called birthscummed characters... min/max characters, whatever. I make a guy who rolls out of the starting gate who eats people whole. You're simply not going to get this feeling here, to mirror what Half just said, though there are some easier builds of course. You will, eventually, get that powerful feeling toward the very end of the game once you've earned it, but even then your optimism must be tempered because you could still get snuffed out kind of quickly if you get cocky.
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Old January 20, 2012, 03:18   #29
Fendell Orcbane
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I think Sil is great and part of the reason that people are finding it hard is that no one has beat it yet. Once we know that victory(and we have a formula for winning like we do for Angband) is possible people will start winning a lot more often and people will be like "Sil is too easy".
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Old January 20, 2012, 03:53   #30
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So clearly what needs to happen is, every time someone wins, they get added as a new unique monster and the game is patched so their method of winning no longer works.
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