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Old April 14, 2018, 13:24   #11
Werbaer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grotug View Post
"Elessar used to have (+7, +7)? What version? That does sound very appropriate. Maybe I should try out some old versions of Angband.
But not too old. Elessar didn't exist pre-3.0. Along with most other high-level amulets.

Elessar, Evenstar, Trickery, Weaponmastery, Devotion, Resistance, ESP, Sustanance. All these were added in 3.0 or later.

Back in old days, it was Amulet of Wisdom for priests, and Necklace of the Dwarves for everybody else. If they were able to find it; i had a mage use Wisdom (+5) at the end, since he didn't find anything better.
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Old April 14, 2018, 13:57   #12
Sideways
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Werbaer View Post
But not too old. Elessar didn't exist pre-3.0. Along with most other high-level amulets.

Elessar, Evenstar, Trickery, Weaponmastery, Devotion, Resistance, ESP, Sustanance. All these were added in 3.0 or later.
Yeah, 3.0 already came a lot closer to today's "linear power trickle" than 2.9 did, and additions of things like those (as well as new egos) were a big reason why. JLE's patch (officially added in 3.0.0) was a huge change, and to me it still marks the border between "new Angband" and "old Angband".
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Old April 14, 2018, 15:14   #13
Derakon
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What is this ? +1 str, dex, con - really ?
The original had +2 - either way, the main feature here is the +2 attacks, and if the creator of the original version had translated "makes the wielder a hero" with "+2 all combat stats", fine.
Now it got nerfed - a move I disagree with, for reasons posted elsewhere - but if you absolutely have to make it weaker, for Christ´s sake give it some character. Make it +3 to str only, or dex, or whatever you think is more tolkienish, but not this tastless sludge of +1 to everything.
I agree with this. It's more interesting to have gear that gives a big bonus to one stat than it is to find gear that gives small bonuses to many stats. In Sting's case I'd say that a +3 STR bonus and no DEX/CON bonus sounds pretty reasonable.

As for speed bonuses: I understand why the game is now littered with small speed bonuses, and it does usually eliminate the "I can't go deeper because everything moves twice as fast as I do" issue that frequently came up in earlier versions. But it also makes speed finds a lot less special. I have to wonder if there's some other solution to the problem that keeps speed bonuses "chunky" for the most part, while also ensuring that they have the right amount of rarity. I would not be opposed to the game biasing drop rates based on what level of speed you already have...
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Old April 14, 2018, 16:38   #14
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
I would not be opposed to the game biasing drop rates based on what level of speed you already have...
Then there would incentive to leave all your speed in your home to keep farming for more, then equip endgame level speed items at DL40 or whatever, once you have enough of them. If it counted the items in your home, then you'd have to be sure to destroy equipment with speed bonuses that you don't intend on using, lest it bias the game against you. The dungeon generation should not be influenced by your character.

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Maybe we need a variant 'NewOldAngband'
That would be amazing!

Last edited by Ighalli; April 14, 2018 at 16:50.
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Old April 14, 2018, 19:58   #15
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I probably bear some blame for some of these changes, if not directly contributing to the code, at least with the philosophy.

I think for everyone there's a sweet spot of the game that feels right to them. This is going to vary a lot between players. Back in the old version (3.0.6-9 or thereabouts) I would bring characters down to level 60 or 80 and then just stop. Sorting through all the gear to find the one piece of equipment you needed was just way too frustrating. Back then "too much junk" was considered one of the bigger problems in the game. Some of it could be solved with squelch, but weapons and armor issues couldn't (it's better now with the rune system for sure)

It's actually possible to revert back to 3.0.x items (or even 2.x) without much or any coding. You can do a good chunk of it in the edit files. All it takes is a little time and patience. If you want to revert some other changes, you might need to add some pieces of code. Increasing monster group sizes to 25 is a straightforward change in the code. Whereas something like stripping out all the mixed monster groups is easy in the edit files. Don't forget to increase hound frequency too! Or, you can just choose the game style you like and make the appropriate changes. (It used to be that you only had three options, monsters were solo, monsters spawned in groups of 2-25, monsters had escorts)

Another point. For better or for worse, games get judged a lot on how optimal strategies work. Any game where the best strategy is mind-numbingly boring will suffer for it. Angband *still* suffers from the perception that the game is just one big grind, where you mow down weak monsters on early levels over and over again looking for that one item that will help you. You *still* can play that way, and 15 years or so after "tales of the bold rogue" we still have that reputation.

Some of us have been playing for decades. I'm pretty sure I would not have had the desire to load up a new character if the game was still the same as 3.0.6. Are there changes I don't like, yup. Are there changes I do like, yes, certainly. The only thing that has always been true as long as I've been on this forum. Anytime there's some substantive change, there's always someone who likes it better the way it was.
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Old April 14, 2018, 22:32   #16
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My main gripe is the status effect changes.

Just as well I have my own variant now so I can change everything according to my own whims.

If I could play V with old status effects, I probably would, but they make the early game an exercise in frustration for me.
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Old April 15, 2018, 01:19   #17
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i'm pretty sure elessar existed in the 2.X era.

back when the best light you could wear in standart was not the arkenstone, but rather the Palantir of Otranc.
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Old April 15, 2018, 01:30   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky View Post
i'm pretty sure elessar existed in the 2.X era.

back when the best light you could wear in standart was not the arkenstone, but rather the Palantir of Otranc.
Wrong on both counts! The Palantir and Elessar both did not exist in the 2.x days; the best light source was the Arkenstone (and it activated for Enlightenment), and the best amulet was...often a +6 Amulet of Wisdom because most amulets were pretty terrible and a better saving throw is always good.

An awful lot of jewelry was added in the 3.x days.
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Old April 15, 2018, 11:38   #19
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was it not?
i started playing when you had to download separately & manually enable adam bolt's tiles.
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Old April 20, 2018, 16:16   #20
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i began playing in 3.12v2 , and i consider myself a strict angband conservative...

that being said, despite all the changes , honestly i believe 4.1.2 is the definitive version of angband so far! ,,,

i do hope tho they keep gameplay changes to a minimum from now on, i heard about class changes and have concerns that they are corrupting the core game, keep it all for variants please!
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