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Old October 18, 2017, 17:32   #41
bagori nd
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So basically, blunt weapons get 25% sharpness, except in the case where the net damage you would inflict is less than 25% of what the armor would absorb (in which case it's raised to 25%).

Note that afaict, this makes warhammers categorically better than greataxes.

edit: fix grammar & punctuation; damn smartphone.

Last edited by bagori nd; October 19, 2017 at 15:59.
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Old October 19, 2017, 01:56   #42
Quirk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bagori nd View Post
So basically, blunt weapons get 25% sharpness, except in case where they net damage you would inflict is less than 25% of what the armor would (in which case it's raised to 25%)

Note that afaict, this makes warhammers categorically better than greataxes.
Not quite. Exceptions are where you're facing a low-armour foe, where 4(d3 + STR) is worse than 4(d4 + STR) because the armour bonus doesn't make up for the missing 4 damage sides (however, accuracy is -3 for warhammer vs -4 for axe), or you have very high STR and the higher weight of the axe makes a difference. However this does push the balance more towards warhammers; great axe could maybe do with a minor buff such as +1 accuracy (battle axes will still be better for lower strength, and score more criticals).
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Old October 19, 2017, 15:15   #43
Serephina
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But yea, as he said, warhammers just have 25% sharpness now. Apart from doubling up on an already implemented mechanic, I'm not sure about giving weapons unintuitive perks. Part of the draw of Sil is the simplicity and transparency of it's mechanics. See a short sword, see how it crits, now compare to an axe, see how it uses strength, and everything in between.

If you wanted to go reaally hog wild you could give literally every weapon a perk, and list them both in the manual and ingame. It's not 'Sil', but hey, mods!
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Old October 19, 2017, 19:30   #44
Pete Mack
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It's NOT the same thing as 1/4 sharpness, at all. Sharpness affects ALL hits, granting them up to (armor roll) extra damage. The Warhammer only affects hits up to 4/3*(armor roll).
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Old October 19, 2017, 22:26   #45
Quirk
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Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
It's NOT the same thing as 1/4 sharpness, at all. Sharpness affects ALL hits, granting them up to (armor roll) extra damage. The Warhammer only affects hits up to 4/3*(armor roll).
Let me run through a quick example to make the difference clearer.

Damage roll is 8, armor roll is 20.

With 25% sharpness: adjusted armor roll is 15.
- No damage.

With bluntness: no damage, but damage to the armor / 4 applied as bonus.
- 0 + 2 damage.

Damage roll is 16, armor roll is 20.

With 25% sharpness: adjusted armor roll is 15.
- 1 damage.

With bluntness: no damage, but damage to the armor / 4 applied as bonus.
- 0 + 4 damage.

Damage roll is 20, armor roll is 20.

With 25% sharpness: adjusted armor roll is 15.
- 5 damage.

With bluntness: no damage, but damage to the armor / 4 applied as bonus.
- 0 + 5 damage.

Damage roll is 25, armor roll is 20.

With 25% sharpness: adjusted armor roll is 15.
- 10 damage.

With bluntness: 5 damage, damage to the armor / 4 applied as bonus.
- 5 + 5 damage = 10 damage.
(Now you're past the armour you do damage as usual.)

The UI now shows the bonus damage with a little plus, like this:
1 + 3
so it should be easy to see from the combat roll how much damage you're doing.

The big difference is that bluntness will get some damage through even if you are facing 100 armor, sharpness won't.
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Old October 19, 2017, 22:30   #46
Quirk
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Originally Posted by Serephina View Post
I'm not sure about giving weapons unintuitive perks. Part of the draw of Sil is the simplicity and transparency of it's mechanics. See a short sword, see how it crits, now compare to an axe, see how it uses strength, and everything in between.
What do you find unintuitive about blunt weapons being good against armour? The entire reason for the late medieval shift away from swords on the battlefield and toward blunt weapons was because they work very well against heavy armour. This is not something that can be said of blunt weapons in Sil currently.

Last edited by Quirk; October 19, 2017 at 22:35.
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Old October 19, 2017, 23:17   #47
bagori nd
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Originally Posted by Quirk View Post
What do you find unintuitive about blunt weapons being good against armour? The entire reason for the late medieval shift away from swords on the battlefield and toward blunt weapons was because they work very well against heavy armour. This is not something that can be said of blunt weapons in Sil currently.
To be fair, Sil is trying to simulate a world where military technology hits roughly the level of 11th century Europe from about the moment anyone gets it into their head to make a weapon, and then stays put for the next 10,000+ years. The late medieval shift away from swords on the battlefield probably only happens way into the Fourth Age!
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Old October 21, 2017, 16:42   #48
Serephina
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Originally Posted by Quirk View Post
What do you find unintuitive about blunt weapons being good against armour? The entire reason for the late medieval shift away from swords on the battlefield and toward blunt weapons was because they work very well against heavy armour. This is not something that can be said of blunt weapons in Sil currently.
I know perfectly well that blunt weapons where historically used against armoured opponents. This isn't a history simulator with 500 damage subtypes, it's a video game with dwarfs in it. There is nothing remarkable about warhammers in-game that would suggest they work by different rules than the other weapons, the way weapons work is described succinctly in the manual, and with the variations on weapon types being spelled out loud with multiple statements on who is proficient with what.

You could write a game where each weapon type is distinct; heavy blunt weapons do well v armour, swords slice flesh but slide off armour, spears penetrate but are unusable in close combat, daggers which snap in two when used with too much strength, etc. This would be a cool game! (And is probably called dwarf fortress) But for Sil, the game has a much cleaner flow with simple-yet-deep weapon mechanics. Adding unneeded fluff to complicate weapon rolls is antithetic to a lot of what makes Sil unique.

Honestly it's possibly making mountains out of molehills, write your mod as you wish, it's just feedback from the peanut gallery.
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Old October 21, 2017, 23:37   #49
Gwarl
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Sil is already the game that Sil is. Sil-Quirk doesn't have to be that. I think this has been an interesting project so far and he should keep on experimenting with things that make a cool game that isn't Sil
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Old October 22, 2017, 02:36   #50
Quirk
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Originally Posted by Serephina View Post
But for Sil, the game has a much cleaner flow with simple-yet-deep weapon mechanics. Adding unneeded fluff to complicate weapon rolls is antithetic to a lot of what makes Sil unique.
I think your notion of Sil's simplicity is misplaced.

There are the obvious parts which are far from simple, of course: who wants to tell me how Cruel Blow or Crippling Shot are calculated? Which bonuses does Disguise affect (hint: it's not all of them) and does that translate directly into a fixed level of Stealth improvement or not? What factors impact Song of Lorien's ability to make monsters fall asleep? A number of the non-combat elements function in quite opaque ways.

But combat itself, which gives you all the numbers, is much less straightforward than it looks. How much average damage per hit do you need to gain to break even on a weapon with -2 to hit over your current choice if your Melee is 7, your current average damage is 4 and you're fighting orc warriors? How does that change if you increase Melee by 1? (This is calculable, but I suspect few people sit down and make the calculation, particularly when it comes to accurately calculating that average damage).

Or take damage dice - surely those at least are simple? If you're choosing with a strength 2 elf between one-handed wielding of a 1d11 spear and a 4d3 warhammer, which does more average damage ignoring criticals against an armour roll of 10 (hint: it's not the warhammer)? Which is the best pick against a serpent with a 4d4 armor roll? When you find yourself calculating overlaps between differently spread normal distributions, you're in a place where intuition alone is a terrible guide unless you're a probability whizz.

Sil gives the impression of a game where things are calculable by the player. Generally, they're not, not in any tractable sense. Knowing where the trade-off point lies for weapons and armour against the menagerie of enemies is something we learn by feel and personal experience. You were championing one-handed warhammers a little while ago; calculation would not have brought you there, and most people's experience leads them away from this as an option. Your experience has led you to feel they're reasonable weapons: this is not calculation, this is gut.

What we do have is broad heuristics. Weapons with more dice leverage strength. Weapons with low weight leverage high Melee. Now we can add to these that blunt weapons will always get some proportion of their damage through armour. The UI shows you how much bonus damage you're getting, so you can get a feel for it. The calculation is a little more complicated, but not much more than the already existing Sharpness makes it.

Why is this even necessary? Because there are a limited number of dice pools that can be made reasonably competitive with one another using the current dynamic, and currently, the blunt weapons fall short of being competitive (albeit the warhammer by less than most). We can ditch weapons from the game, cut down the options to only those that clearly have reasonable niches, but to me that feels bad. I'd like to feel that someone can have a sensible reason to descend like Gandalf with robe and quarterstaff, or that in some circumstance it's right to pick up a vanilla sceptre.
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