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Old August 23, 2018, 15:55   #21
Derakon
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Note that Vanilla rune-ID is just one part of a general streamlining of the identification process, which also includes removing the most punishing bad items (like ?Curse Weapon, !Death, !Detonations, !Weakness, sticky curses, etc.). The general intent is to a) encourage the player to experiment with items in the early game, by making it safe to do so, and b) keep the player from having to tediously identify gigantic piles of crap treasure in the late game.

The latter is done not just by pre-identifying things for them, but also by simply reducing the amount of items that are dropped. Back in the Vanilla 2.9 days (IIRC about when Zangband branched off) an Ancient Dragon might drop upwards of 15 items; in modern Vanilla you'll rarely see them drop more than 3. I believe this is done by generating items as normal, and then stochastically deleting too-shallow items from the drop. It may be limited to only operating on equipment, to avoid squelching e.g. ?Phase; I haven't looked at the code.
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Old August 23, 2018, 22:24   #22
jevansau
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One other problem I noted is that Cthangband uses a lot of CPU (~30%) on my 2 core system, just sitting idle from the first screen on.
My suspicion is that the input routine is in a tight loop checking for input. If so, adding even a small sleep into the loop would help greatly.
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Old August 23, 2018, 22:25   #23
Dean Anderson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jevansau View Post
Each item property is associated with a rune. Once you have identified a rune, you know it on all future items. Curses are also associated with a rune. The other changes were to allow identification by use, and also making magic identification fairly rare and expensive. Each identify only identifies 1 random property of an item.
It means that identification can be a challenge early but becomes a non-issue later when "too much junk" tends to become the main problem.
The basic idea sounds interesting. So you might get something like a "cloak [2, +5] "XE-JAR-KO-NOI-PA", which when you examine it says something like "it has five unknown properties". Then after you've cast Identify on it once and discovered that the "JAR" rune resists fire; and cast Identify on something else and learned from that that the "KO" rune resists cold, the item would then be "a cloak [2, +5] "XE-jar-ko-NOI-PA" (showing that you've identified "jar" and "ko") and if you examine it you'd be told "it resists fire, it resists cold, and it has three unknown properties".

Is that the basic mechanism? I quite like that.

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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Note that Vanilla rune-ID is just one part of a general streamlining of the identification process, which also includes removing the most punishing bad items (like ?Curse Weapon, !Death, !Detonations, !Weakness, sticky curses, etc.). The general intent is to a) encourage the player to experiment with items in the early game, by making it safe to do so, and b) keep the player from having to tediously identify gigantic piles of crap treasure in the late game.
Yeah. That's a step too far for me. I like the older "only try unidentified things as a last resort" style. I prefer it to being encouraged to experiment. That's not to say that you can't safely experiment with anything in Cthangband; wands are pretty safe providing you try them out on something that you don't mind getting hasted or healed or polymorphed, for example.

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The latter is done not just by pre-identifying things for them, but also by simply reducing the amount of items that are dropped. Back in the Vanilla 2.9 days (IIRC about when Zangband branched off) an Ancient Dragon might drop upwards of 15 items; in modern Vanilla you'll rarely see them drop more than 3. I believe this is done by generating items as normal, and then stochastically deleting too-shallow items from the drop. It may be limited to only operating on equipment, to avoid squelching e.g. ?Phase; I haven't looked at the code.
Interestingly, I always resisted adding the 'squelch' options to Cthangband, and when I did eventually add them in version 6.0 I deliberately didn't go down the route of suppressing 'squelchable' items from being generated or being displayed. They still drop, and you can still see them on the floor - it's just that when you walk on them you stomp on them (destroying them) rather than picking them up.

I've never liked items being filtered out so you only see the couple of good items rather than looking through the pile of trash items to find the good ones. To me, finding something good amongst the dross is more enjoyable than only getting given the good stuff.
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Old August 23, 2018, 23:04   #24
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Your understanding of rune-based ID is correct.

If you haven't played modern Vanilla, I'd encourage you to give it a shot, if only so you can do a fair comparison between the way your game works and the way Vanilla works. I'm not saying you'll change your mind, just that lots of people hear how Vanilla works and think "ugh, that sounds horrible", then they play it and think "hey actually, this lets me focus on the parts of the game I find the most fun."

And to be clear, Ancient Dragons still drop a lot of crap even in modern Vanilla. They just don't drop quite as much crap. There's basically zero reason to be generating {average} daggers past 1000 feet, for example. So now instead of spending twenty minutes sifting through all the drops after clearing an angel pit, you spend five.
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Old August 25, 2018, 17:33   #25
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Got a chance to play briefly. Trying out the warrior mage in the hope it's not as disappointing as other Z-variants. Love the manual by the way, "welcome this manual hasn't been written yet. Anyway I suspect I'll have more comments and bugs when I play more, but a couple of things first. Interface seems frustrating, any plans for keymaps/macros or the equivalent? The game changed my screen resolution. Both in and outside the game. That's no biggy for me but I suspect some people will not be happy with their desktop settings being mucked with. Anyway going to play some more, congrats and good luck!
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Old August 25, 2018, 19:15   #26
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Well played for a while. Start seems super rough. Not necessarily a good or bad thing & I remember Z was similar. Then I kill something and I seem to shoot up multiple levels quite quickly. Go from about 10 to 70 hps in a few kills. The lack of examine working on items is a little frustrating, I drank slime mold & it restored dex. I have no idea whether that's a bug or intended game play. Got a special feeling at the bottom of the sewers but found neither unique nor artifact. The light wand animation felt slow. It's ok but it's going to be slow going for anyone device heavy. I think that's it for now.

Playing a caster was a bit irritating with the whole library thing. You said there was not much reason to visit town without it. That's precisely what's going to annoy people about the mechanic.
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Old August 26, 2018, 10:37   #27
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Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
Got a chance to play briefly. Trying out the warrior mage in the hope it's not as disappointing as other Z-variants. Love the manual by the way, "welcome this manual hasn't been written yet.
Yeah, I wouldn't have included the unwritten manual at all if it weren't for the fact that it includes the changelog and history.

I'm not sure what to do about the manual. I have a lot of changes planned for the next version, including a completely new UI, so I'm reluctant to spend days writing a load of stuff for the manual that's immediately obsolete.

But on the other hand, since the next version with the new UI may take a while, I want to release a quick bugfix release of this version first - and it would be nice to have a manual for the bugfix version.

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Anyway I suspect I'll have more comments and bugs when I play more, but a couple of things first. Interface seems frustrating, any plans for keymaps/macros or the equivalent?
I have plans for macros, yes. Unless the new UI makes them obsolete.

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The game changed my screen resolution. Both in and outside the game. That's no biggy for me but I suspect some people will not be happy with their desktop settings being mucked with.
That's... really weird, because theres no code in the game to do that!

The game runs in a .NET WPF form, and it either sets the size of the form based on what you've told it to or it tells the form to become borderless and to maximise itself to fill the screen as if you'd hit the maximise button in the top right of the window.

At no point does it ever do anything with your screen resolution or try to exclusively take over the graphics device or anything like that. There's no code in there to tell it to do any of those things. It doesn't even check your screen resolution. It just tells the system to maximise the window.

Are you running on Windows? Or with some third party WPF emulation library on another system?

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Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
Well played for a while. Start seems super rough. Not necessarily a good or bad thing & I remember Z was similar. Then I kill something and I seem to shoot up multiple levels quite quickly. Go from about 10 to 70 hps in a few kills.
It all depends on what you kill, of course. It's not unusual for characters to jump up the first few levels quite quickly if they get a couple of lucky kills on out-of-depth creatures, but others will still have to carefully crawl up those same first few levels.

It all evens out by about level ten, due to the diminishing returns of experience points.

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The lack of examine working on items is a little frustrating, I drank slime mold & it restored dex. I have no idea whether that's a bug or intended game play.
There is an examine command, but you need to have *Identify*ed an Item for it to give you information about it. This is because the game uses the traditional identify mechanics rather than the newer ones that more recent versions of Angband now uses.

As for the slime mold, that's by design - a few versions ago I put in a change that I referred to in the change log as "The slime mods are revolting!" as a bit of an in-joke for Angband players used to slime molds being a food source. Basically, there are slime mold monsters as well as slime mold food, and eating a slime mold (or drinking slime mold juice) will have the effect of a random potion. You might get lucky, as you did, but you might have got the Potion of Death or Potion of Detonations effect and died. Basically, it's not safe to eat slime molds or drink their juice.

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Got a special feeling at the bottom of the sewers but found neither unique nor artifact.
Unique monsters don't give you a special feeling. An artifact will always give you a special feeling and a vault/pit will sometimes give you one (the chance varies depending on depth - if you were still in a sewer then a vault/pit would be pretty much guaranteed to give you one).
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Old August 26, 2018, 11:46   #28
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Windows 7 Nividia. I'm not that surprised it's not coded to do this. I imagine other variants aren't programed to start iTunes playing on exit. Yet if iTunes is open in the background and I quit it starts playing. Haven't tried with Cth but the rest all do it
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