Missing mushroom and object generation question

Nate · March 30, 2010, 17:14

This is for version 3.1.2 I've got one unidentified mushroom on my object info list. I'm guessing this is the mushroom of turbulence and that it can never be found in the current version because of the "#" in front of a couple of the fields for that mushroom in obj.txt. I've unsuccessfully searched here and at the development site.

Also, I've noticed that Power and Balance DSM seems to appear in clusters. I'll get 2 or 3 Power DSM and 6 or 7 Balance DSM and then neither for a long, long time and then another bunch. Is this a known behavior of the RNG?

-Nate

dhegler · March 30, 2010, 18:59

On a separate note about mushrooms.... Why do they appear so scarcely? I bet I could walk into any cave around here on a hillside and find dozens!

I have played Angband for upteen years (it seems) and a week ago was the first time I ever found BDSM. I have still never found PDSM, but this was the first game I played in 3.1.2.

Marble Dice · March 30, 2010, 22:41

I believe you are correct; without at least one "A:" allocation line, the mushroom will never spawn. The mushroom's effect (SHROOM_TURB) is not implemented, and so the mushroom would serve no purpose even if you found one.

The appropriate action would have been to comment out the entire entry in object.txt, which will prevent it from appearing in the knowledge menu. I'm not sure why only two lines of the object definition were commented out.

You could say it is a known behavior of the RNG to go on lucky/unlucky streaks, but more specifically, it's just the nature of probability.

Nate · March 31, 2010, 03:10

Thanks for the info Marble Dice. I hear you on the luck of the dice. Like coin flips. 10 heads in a row! the coin must be rigged!. How to tell if a series of coin flips is really from flipping a coin or just made up? The made up series won't have enough long runs of one type or the other. I did my Masters thesis on statistically testing for the presence of patterns in piles of sedimentary rocks and I found that there was randomness over short sections of rock types superimposed on a longer term nonrandom cycle. So a longer term periodic cycle of lots of shallow water rock types and then lots of deeper water rock types but within any given section of shallow or deep water rock types, there was no way to predict the order in which the rock types would be deposited. The DSM behavior reminded me of that. A longer term cycle of lots of DSM vs little DSM but within each part of the cycle (lots or little DSM) no way to predict which items will be generated. I know there is some kind of debate about whether RNGs are really random but I don't know anything about the details. Back to the dungeon!

Sirridan · March 31, 2010, 05:17

IT's always bugged me, what is a mushroom of Turbulence supposed to do?

Derakon · March 31, 2010, 06:25

Nothing; its effect hasn't been coded yet.

I suppose it could be speed + starvation. Or speed + confusion.

Marble Dice · March 31, 2010, 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate

I know there is some kind of debate about whether RNGs are really random but I don't know anything about the details. Back to the dungeon!

Almost everyone on this forum will tell you that the RNG is not random, but is in fact deterministic, and that:

The RNG is omnipotent
The RNG is malevolent
The RNG will kill you
If the RNG does not kill you, it is only so the RNG may prolong your suffering
If the RNG gives you something good, it is only so the RNG can take it away

Zikke · April 1, 2010, 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marble Dice

Almost everyone on this forum will tell you that the RNG is not random, but is in fact deterministic, and that:

The RNG is omnipotent
The RNG is malevolent
The RNG will kill you
If the RNG does not kill you, it is only so the RNG may prolong your suffering
If the RNG gives you something good, it is only so the RNG can take it away

The RNG can fry ants with a magnifying glass. At NIGHT.
The RNG can divide by zero.

(and other assorted Chuck Norris facts, too)

Tiburon Silverflame · April 1, 2010, 16:21

What RNG is being used? Don't feel like digging through the code to find out.

Derakon · April 1, 2010, 16:55

As I recall, it's a homebrew. Someone ran some tests comparing it to the Mersenne Twister years ago and found that it's of comparable randomness, though.

Ultimately, it's not that the RNG isn't random; it's that people love to anthropomorphize things and see patterns that aren't there.

March 30, 2010, 17:14	#1
Nate Rookie Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 19	Missing mushroom and object generation question This is for version 3.1.2 I've got one unidentified mushroom on my object info list. I'm guessing this is the mushroom of turbulence and that it can never be found in the current version because of the "#" in front of a couple of the fields for that mushroom in obj.txt. I've unsuccessfully searched here and at the development site. Also, I've noticed that Power and Balance DSM seems to appear in clusters. I'll get 2 or 3 Power DSM and 6 or 7 Balance DSM and then neither for a long, long time and then another bunch. Is this a known behavior of the RNG? -Nate Last edited by Nate; March 31, 2010 at 03:53.

March 31, 2010, 03:10	#4
Nate Rookie Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 19	Rng Thanks for the info Marble Dice. I hear you on the luck of the dice. Like coin flips. 10 heads in a row! the coin must be rigged!. How to tell if a series of coin flips is really from flipping a coin or just made up? The made up series won't have enough long runs of one type or the other. I did my Masters thesis on statistically testing for the presence of patterns in piles of sedimentary rocks and I found that there was randomness over short sections of rock types superimposed on a longer term nonrandom cycle. So a longer term periodic cycle of lots of shallow water rock types and then lots of deeper water rock types but within any given section of shallow or deep water rock types, there was no way to predict the order in which the rock types would be deposited. The DSM behavior reminded me of that. A longer term cycle of lots of DSM vs little DSM but within each part of the cycle (lots or little DSM) no way to predict which items will be generated. I know there is some kind of debate about whether RNGs are really random but I don't know anything about the details. Back to the dungeon!

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March 30, 2010, 18:59	#2
dhegler Swordsman Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 252	On a separate note about mushrooms.... Why do they appear so scarcely? I bet I could walk into any cave around here on a hillside and find dozens! I have played Angband for upteen years (it seems) and a week ago was the first time I ever found BDSM. I have still never found PDSM, but this was the first game I played in 3.1.2.

March 30, 2010, 22:41	#3
Marble Dice Swordsman Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Portland, OR, USA Posts: 412	I believe you are correct; without at least one "A:" allocation line, the mushroom will never spawn. The mushroom's effect (SHROOM_TURB) is not implemented, and so the mushroom would serve no purpose even if you found one. The appropriate action would have been to comment out the entire entry in object.txt, which will prevent it from appearing in the knowledge menu. I'm not sure why only two lines of the object definition were commented out. You could say it is a known behavior of the RNG to go on lucky/unlucky streaks, but more specifically, it's just the nature of probability.

March 31, 2010, 05:17	#5
Sirridan Knight Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 560	IT's always bugged me, what is a mushroom of Turbulence supposed to do?

March 31, 2010, 06:25	#6
Derakon Prophet Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 9,022	Nothing; its effect hasn't been coded yet. I suppose it could be speed + starvation. Or speed + confusion.

April 1, 2010, 16:21	#9
Tiburon Silverflame Swordsman Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 405	What RNG is being used? Don't feel like digging through the code to find out.

April 1, 2010, 16:55	#10
Derakon Prophet Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 9,022	As I recall, it's a homebrew. Someone ran some tests comparing it to the Mersenne Twister years ago and found that it's of comparable randomness, though. Ultimately, it's not that the RNG isn't random; it's that people love to anthropomorphize things and see patterns that aren't there.

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