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Old March 21, 2019, 13:08   #131
Mocht
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I playing with Virtues ON (for fun). My mindcrafter stumble upon a pack of shadowhounds which constatly blind him and my Enlightment virtue go to negative state. I get a word play "blind" and "enLIGHTment" but does it affect my mindcraft in the way the Nature virtue affects ranger casting in realm of nature?
Apart from Chris I don't know of anyone who knows much about virtues
Virtues are opaque, who knows how many standard beliefs about them are wrong
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Old March 21, 2019, 15:53   #132
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Originally Posted by Mocht View Post
Apart from Chris I don't know of anyone who knows much about virtues
Virtues are opaque, who knows how many standard beliefs about them are wrong
Virtues also tend to make play harder. Trying to be 'Good' or 'Lawful'? You can never hit something first or if it is sleeping it is really bad. So, you might as well be aggravating and let them hit you first to be 'Good' and simply forget all stealth attacks.

The mechanism is so arcane and hidden, what affects what and why is largely unknown. Good Magic wants you to be Good, Bad magic is Bad, Nature is Neutral (which is really difficult)

I'm a coward and just leave all that turned off...
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Old March 22, 2019, 03:24   #133
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In my case, I just play virtues ON at all times, anyday. I just wing it!
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Old March 22, 2019, 05:16   #134
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I playing with Virtues ON (for fun)
Also, the unpopularity of virtues was a factor in Chris's departure
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Old March 22, 2019, 08:07   #135
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Originally Posted by Rudiment View Post
I playing with Virtues ON (for fun). My mindcrafter stumble upon a pack of shadowhounds which constatly blind him and my Enlightment virtue go to negative state. I get a word play "blind" and "enLIGHTment" but does it affect my mindcraft in the way the Nature virtue affects ranger casting in realm of nature?
I once looked at the code for virtues
If I understood correctly then:
  • The diligence virtue (or was it patience?) increased the chance of finding magic items
  • Reading a teleport scroll decreased the valour virtue (or whatever it is called), I forget what valour does but it is good for fighters
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Old March 22, 2019, 19:53   #136
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Also, the unpopularity of virtues was a factor in Chris's departure
The opacity of the Virtues led to their lack of popularity.
It was like getting a new car with no manual. Sure you can drive it fine, but learning how to use the back-up camera and auto-parking features was left to random chance and trial and error.
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Old March 22, 2019, 20:17   #137
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Not having played the game in ages, my impressions from conversation here are basically that:

* You have to follow some fairly convoluted conducts if you want to control your virtue scores.
* Virtues are almost all stick, no carrot. That is, you get penalties for having virtue scores out of line with your class, but no bonuses for adhering to them. Consequently anyone who turns virtues off is automatically stronger than a virtue-following player.
* They are as mentioned nearly entirely opaque; what affects virtues is not well-communicated to the player.

So you have a system that periodically thwacks you with a stick for making incorrect decisions, without giving you prompt or detailed enough feedback to know what you did wrong. It's certainly a very old-school approach to game design. Ultima 4 had a very similar virtue system (and is almost certainly the inspiration, directly or otherwise, for this virtue system). The main difference is that the virtue system was a core aspect of the game; you couldn't remove it without the game just not really making sense any more.
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Old March 22, 2019, 20:56   #138
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Not having played the game in ages, my impressions from conversation here are basically that:

* You have to follow some fairly convoluted conducts if you want to control your virtue scores.
* Virtues are almost all stick, no carrot. That is, you get penalties for having virtue scores out of line with your class, but no bonuses for adhering to them. Consequently anyone who turns virtues off is automatically stronger than a virtue-following player.
* They are as mentioned nearly entirely opaque; what affects virtues is not well-communicated to the player.

So you have a system that periodically thwacks you with a stick for making incorrect decisions, without giving you prompt or detailed enough feedback to know what you did wrong.
All of which is why virtues are off by default and you have to actively turn them on if you want to play with them

(There is in fact a fair bit of carrot to virtues, though, it's just that people don't know where the carrot is.)
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Old March 23, 2019, 03:27   #139
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
It's certainly a very old-school approach to game design. Ultima 4 had a very similar virtue system (and is almost certainly the inspiration, directly or otherwise, for this virtue system). The main difference is that the virtue system was a core aspect of the game; you couldn't remove it without the game just not really making sense any more.
I was thinking that they felt similar to Ultima IV. The Virtues were what made me give up on Ultima IV, one action would hurt you a lot, and you needed many countering moves to repair it. Again it wasn't clear at first why you wanted or needed one aspect. Only by hindsight was it even clear that you basically needed to know the game's endings in advance to play properly.
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Old March 23, 2019, 03:52   #140
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virtue talk
I started thinking last night about code-diving to see what all's affected by virtues—I didn't know about the better loot quality until Mocht mentioning it prompted me to look, for instance.

Would people on here be interested in anything I find in regards to that?
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