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Old September 18, 2017, 22:18   #1
NimrodPE
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Items: New and obsolete (?) ones

Sooner or later, while clearing a level, I always stumble upon a "Summon XY"-trap, which I earlier triggered to get some extra exp (and hopefully items) until that nearly killed me. Learned the lesson. Then I thought: It would be nice to trigger those summon-traps nonetheless because the only real downside is that the summoned monsters surround you instantly.

Nick, how about an item (let's say: Magic Ball?) to activate a trap from a certain distance? I'm thinking about something to roll/throw onto the tile like one would in RL trigger traps.

Then concerning an obsolete item. Maybe it's just my lack of game knowledge but what are "ITEMS of Door Destruction" good for? So far there were no "un-openable" doors and if such doors appear deeper in the dungeon why do those items show up on dl1+? Sure, deleting an item for good is a tad sad because you delete game history but right now I fail to see a reason for those.
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Old September 18, 2017, 22:31   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NimrodPE View Post
Then concerning an obsolete item. Maybe it's just my lack of game knowledge but what are "ITEMS of Door Destruction" good for? So far there were no "un-openable" doors and if such doors appear deeper in the dungeon why do those items show up on dl1+? Sure, deleting an item for good is a tad sad because you delete game history but right now I fail to see a reason for those.
These do have a niche use: they let you open doors from a distance. This can be useful if you want to engage in ranged combat with an enemy but there's a door in the way. That is, admittedly, extremely niche. I think it would suffice to let Stone to Mud work on doors, which IIRC it doesn't currently.
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Old September 19, 2017, 02:15   #3
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fuse S2M, Stun and DD into a Wand Of Impact. Also conveniently activates traps.
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Old September 21, 2017, 08:49   #4
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fuse S2M, Stun and DD into a Wand Of Impact. Also conveniently activates traps.
+1 to this idea. It would make for a great early-level item, one that is useful for a good part of the game. It would also help with id-by-use, and with the problem "found an early vault, have no shovel with me".
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Old September 22, 2017, 23:39   #5
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Ok, people, as creator of this post I think we have strayed too far from what I wanted us to think about. If there is an "us". For me - it is. Definitely.

So, let's cut the story-telling (sorry Dreambeard, although I really love your contributions, they are not helping here) and those jests and let's get back to square one for the following reason: either we may start to think about implementing a new item or we dismiss that.

1) Concerning problem Alpha: A dungeon crawler (let's name her/him HERO) finds a trap. Our HERO can neither disarm nor circumvent it, because HERO wants to go past this trap.
2) Question: How does HERO get past this trap?
3) Solution: HERO triggers trap from a "safe" distance, where the range of "safe" is arbitrarily.
4) This leads to problem Beta: How do you disarm a trap from distance when there is no such method? (We arbitrarily circumvent now the philosophical question if HERO could think about something nonexistent. I say HERO can, but that's for each of you to decide alone just like Schrödingers Cat. Feed it)

So, now that we are past puns, I need to tell you that I thought about traps like something to be triggered physically. Like with a button, a tripwire, maybe even a "magical laserbeam".

Thanks to Derakon I now understand that the concept of "traps" in angband is not innately physical.

5) Meaning: Traps can also be completely magical (= non-physical) and thus traps are not triggered by physical interaction.
6) This leads to: Therefore a "trap" can be completely magical, meaning in its entirety this "trap" can be understood just like a "field of (electromagnetical) energy" which interacts with HERO in some way. (see 7))

This makes something like my "magic ball" obsolete. Ok, got that, but if HERO walks on a trap-tile he disarms or triggers the trap automatically, even when wearing nothing and possessing zero items. I experienced that in one of my first attempts to play angband when I haven't even read a guide ;D

7) Which leads to: Traps are triggered by HERO in whatever way.

Now what I wanted to discuss was: Is there a need from the community to create/invent/make an "item" or "ability" which enables HERO to trigger traps from a "safe" distance?

My train of thought (yes, DT rocks, yay, pun, wohoo, you may keep it!): If I'd be HERO, I would think about a solution to this problem because as HERO I have only one life - this one. So dealing with deadly traps as safe as possible would be my number 1 priority IF I must deal with a specific trap.

But ss player... Well, I can have lots of HEROs.

Which is why I tried to think about an in-game-solution just like you do when playing Pen&Paper (which is where I hail from).

Now concerning some answers:
@Sky: Although I really appreciate your idea I don't think that I have enough angband-experience to support or deny your idea. But right now you are #1 contributer. Thank you!
@kandrc: Not helping.
@Derakon: Thank you for broadening my view and helping me understand the greater concept, also concerning the niche use of Stone to Mud/DD, which gives me enough reason to keep those items in the game.

Now concerning this post:
As far as I can see "we" do not need a new (merged) item/ability which is able to disarm traps from a "safe" distance.

Fine by me, I learned my lesson: Don't make suggestions which could contribute something new to the game because people won't like it.

8) Therefore: Post closed and abandoned at least by me.
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Old September 22, 2017, 23:55   #6
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Aww, I don't think people didn't like your suggestion, more that they were more interested in being silly than in giving it serious consideration. But I'm sure that Nick and the other regular contributors read your post and mentally filed it away in their vast lists of ideas.

My big concern with any method of remotely triggering traps is, how do we make certain that this doesn't become just a gear check that renders traps irrelevant? That is, what's to stop me from carrying a big ol' pile of magic balls (or whatever the item is) and triggering every trap with them? How do we make the decision to remotely trigger a trap vs. interact with it some other way into an interesting decision?
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Old September 23, 2017, 00:45   #7
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First, discussion is good, that's how I find out what's working in the game and what isn't. So you're contributing just by proposing stuff.

Now, your actual idea. Traps have been reworked recently, so discussion of how they're working is valuable. Currently only the player is affected by traps, and for most of them (summoning being the main exception) the player gets no bad effects from setting the trap off at a distance. The magic ball then just becomes a safe disarm from a distance - which we used to have with wands of Disarming and deliberately removed. So as it stands, probably a no.

Discussion is good, though
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Old September 23, 2017, 01:20   #8
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The new traps are good. One very minor point: halftroll warrior, who sets off most traps in his early life (which is as it should be) has to get past those that dont disappear when triggered. This can become annoying in a bad way, repeatedly walking over the trap, waiting for blindness or whatever to end, trying again.

Digging around works of course and if it is important, I am doing exactly that, but in a non-dangerous situation where I just want to pass there could be something like the "take 10" in dnd. My suggestion would be to limit the amount of times any trap can be triggered to maybe 3; that should be enough to make sure the trap matters when enrmies are near and allow passage with an acceptablle amount of repetition if there are none.
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Old September 23, 2017, 02:35   #9
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The new traps are good. One very minor point: halftroll warrior, who sets off most traps in his early life (which is as it should be) has to get past those that dont disappear when triggered. This can become annoying in a bad way, repeatedly walking over the trap, waiting for blindness or whatever to end, trying again.

Digging around works of course and if it is important, I am doing exactly that, but in a non-dangerous situation where I just want to pass there could be something like the "take 10" in dnd. My suggestion would be to limit the amount of times any trap can be triggered to maybe 3; that should be enough to make sure the trap matters when enrmies are near and allow passage with an acceptablle amount of repetition if there are none.
Some traps automatically disappear on triggering (summon traps, for example). Maybe have all others have a 1/3 chance to disappear on each trigger?
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Old September 23, 2017, 02:53   #10
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Sure, that would work.
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