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Old February 12, 2011, 21:19   #11
Nick
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Quylthulg pit. I've also seen pits of g, H, h (scary), k, F, but my favourite is the Umber Hulk pit.
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Old February 12, 2011, 21:49   #12
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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
Orc pits are exciting at DL80 if you aren't strong enough to kill anything else.

DL54 is the cutoff where snagas become worth killing, as stat potion drops come into depth. IMO orc pits are mostly a waste *before* DL54, not after, but probably that's just me. You should make sure that the depth where orc pits stop showing up is not in the late 50s or else there may be a couple of DLs that turn into a new semi-official stat gain depth.
My experience is that late gain orc pits aren't really worth it even for stat gain. Even troll pits are a close call whether I go for it. And this is assuming I have _dispel and can take them out easily.

Now dragon pits...they'll give you on average 3-10 stat gain potions.
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Old February 12, 2011, 22:26   #13
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Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
My experience is that late gain orc pits aren't really worth it even for stat gain. Even troll pits are a close call whether I go for it. And this is assuming I have _dispel and can take them out easily.

Now dragon pits...they'll give you on average 3-10 stat gain potions.
I am pretty sure that Eddie's characters are too weak to take on dragon pits when they first encounter orc pits at dlvl 70.
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Old February 12, 2011, 22:35   #14
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These changes sound like a really cool idea. Besides stat gain potions, increased dragon pit frequencies will also result in higher amounts of endgame consumables being available to the player (?Banish, !*Heal*, etc.), particularly in ironman games. I'd actually try to keep dragon pit frequency about where it is now but increase demon pit frequency, as those are more difficult than dragon pits but not so deadly to a level as undead nests.

Undead nests frequently cause an immediate decision to change levels, so I'm not such a big fan of increasing their frequency, actually. I think animal nests provide a nice challenge throughout the game, though, so gradually increasing their frequency relative to jelly pits is a good change.
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Old February 12, 2011, 23:06   #15
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Undead nests frequently cause an immediate decision to change levels, so I'm not such a big fan of increasing their frequency, actually.
This is a concern of mine as well, and their depth and rarity were the parameters I was least sure of. These might need to be tweaked.

Another fix would be to introduce more nests at around the same depth, to reduce the relative frequency of the undead nests.
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Old February 12, 2011, 23:33   #16
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This is a concern of mine as well, and their depth and rarity were the parameters I was least sure of. These might need to be tweaked.

Another fix would be to introduce more nests at around the same depth, to reduce the relative frequency of the undead nests.
I think there needs to be a design decision made about nests. How fast are the monsters supposed to get out? I don't have an answer, and this isn't a complaint, but I think the issue needs to be addressed.

Perhaps KILL_WALL monsters should not be allowed at all. Perhaps their frequency should be increased. Perhaps the moat wall should have long segments of permanent rock. I don't have a clue. I am just posing options. I think it would be better to have some purpose to aim for, compared to just mucking with frequencies and seeing what happens.
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Old February 13, 2011, 00:09   #17
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In my experience, as long as you're aware of the graveyard, you can stay away from it and not have the monsters come after you. This probably requires a bigger detection radius than just ESP though. In other word, the presence of a graveyard means "tread carefully, and don't teleport", not "get off the level ASAP". That's only if you get too close and everything starts chasing you. From my reading of monster.txt, "too close" is 20 tiles, the awareness range of said reavers.
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Old February 13, 2011, 00:11   #18
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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
I think there needs to be a design decision made about nests. How fast are the monsters supposed to get out? I don't have an answer, and this isn't a complaint, but I think the issue needs to be addressed.

Perhaps KILL_WALL monsters should not be allowed at all. Perhaps their frequency should be increased. Perhaps the moat wall should have long segments of permanent rock. I don't have a clue. I am just posing options. I think it would be better to have some purpose to aim for, compared to just mucking with frequencies and seeing what happens.
I like Andrew Doull's take on it (or at least my interpretation of it) - players should be able to see the structure before encountering the monsters, rather than fighting through a bunch of monsters before finding a moat and an empty square room. I guess that mainly applies to the early levels before ESP and detection can reveal a rectangular block of monsters.
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Old February 13, 2011, 00:22   #19
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Rather then simply changing the contents of pits, I'd like to see the dungeon generation evolve (slowly) as you get deeper (starting beyond DL50). Less room and corridors more cavernous areas to accommodate the giant sized monsters your likely to encounter.

If changing contents is the only real option, I'd vote for a few varied powerful non-uniques paired with a bunch of non-pushover escorts. Why does everything have to share the same symbol.

Orc pits are great for securing basic consumables, but they do seem out of character after a certain point.
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Old February 13, 2011, 10:02   #20
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I like FA umber hulk pits, also vortex (storm of unmagic) pits are nice.
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