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Old November 8, 2012, 12:20   #11
Mikko Lehtinen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
No it doesn't feel as weird, because I choose when to consume potions, scrolls, mushrooms and wands. Arrows break, which is what makes it arbitrary whether I have two left or ten left. (Swap items like rings aren't in the same category.)
Ah ok, now I undestand what you meant.

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You talk as if the quiver is infinite. It only holds ten different types of arrows. As Derakon said, it's a trade-off - you can now carry ten different types of arrows, but only up to a max of 40 in a single inventory slot.

I guess it depends whether individual ego arrows are really powerful or not. In V I think the balance is now about right, but if Mist has more powerful arrows then the quiver would be unbalancing even with a lower stack size.
I'm talking about base types that you can buy from shops. With a quiver of 40 I would probably buy something like 10 biter arrows, 20 normal arrows, 5 flight arrows, 5 tough arrows in every game. Now I have to make a choice between them. All have good and bad sides, and it depends on the character, my bow, and whether I need arrows for killing uniques or for every fight.

Now that I think about it, maybe it actually could work with a quiver, but it would become a very different kind of decision.

This speculation is moot, really, because I'm planning to get rid of bows and arrows altogether.
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Old November 8, 2012, 12:27   #12
Timo Pietilš
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Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
You talk as if the quiver is infinite. It only holds ten different types of arrows. As Derakon said, it's a trade-off - you can now carry ten different types of arrows, but only up to a max of 40 in a single inventory slot..
How about compromise: five quiver slots, 99 stack size? Ten different types sounds a lot to me, usually I end up using same arrow types in several of them (usually large stacks of branded arrows).
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Old November 8, 2012, 13:46   #13
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Much of this problem stems from having far too many types of arrows in V. There are at least 1,000 different kinds of arrows that won't stack with each other! I solved this issue in Sil by drastically reducing the number of types:

- arrows
- arrows (poisoned)
- arrows of piercing
- arrows (+3)

So there is one normal type and three ways it can be enhanced. There is also an artefact arrow and you can make your own artefact arrows but to my knowledge no-one ever has. You could easily cut down on arrow types in V. I'd recommend making them unenchantable, or to only have enchantments that come in some large multiple (e.g. +5 or +10). However, if you have branded arrows and seeker arrows, I see no need for further irrelevantly fine grained pluses.

Other interface points in Sil's archery:

- I also added two quiver slots (like the two ring slots) so you can use 'f' to fire your default ammunition and 'F' to fire the alternate ammunition.
- After you press 'f' or 'F' to fire, pressing 'f' or 'F' again chooses to fire at the target if there is one, and otherwise at the nearest enemy. This allows for really quick archery use
- Firing arrows and throwing objects sets a hidden 'autopickup' flag, so they will be pickup up when you walk over them
- Picked up arrows automatically fill up any quiver that uses that arrow type to the limit (99) and spare ones go in the inventory
- If you have a stack of 80 or something and pick up a stack of 30, the first stack gets filled, giving stacks of 99 and 11
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Old November 8, 2012, 15:15   #14
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Much of this problem stems from having far too many types of arrows in V. There are at least 1,000 different kinds of arrows that won't stack with each other!
Hum? Branded 5, slays 6, holy 1, wounding 1, three base types. 13 * 3 = 39 for each weapon. How do you get 1000? By counting all possible levels of enchantments?
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Old November 8, 2012, 16:13   #15
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Originally Posted by Timo Pietilš View Post
Hum? Branded 5, slays 6, holy 1, wounding 1, three base types. 13 * 3 = 39 for each weapon. How do you get 1000? By counting all possible levels of enchantments?
Yes. His point is that arrows in V are highly unlikely to stack with each other.
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Old November 8, 2012, 18:31   #16
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Yes. His point is that arrows in V are highly unlikely to stack with each other.
... which is precisely why the quiver was introduced in the first place. Choosing to limit the variety of enchantments in order to do without the quiver seems completely perverse (but fine for Sil of course).

Given how rarely arrows stack in V, ten stacks in the quiver seems not overpowered. It was with slots holding 99, but now that's reduced to 40 it's about right. (I initially reduced it to 25 and people complained!)
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Old November 8, 2012, 20:12   #17
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... which is precisely why the quiver was introduced in the first place. Choosing to limit the variety of enchantments in order to do without the quiver seems completely perverse (but fine for Sil of course).
I think the V style quiver is a pretty reasonable solution -- especially if you aren't prepared to change the underlying items you can find. However, I think that limiting the enchantment types is better still, even in V.

You don't need 1,000 different types of arrow in a game.

It may seem odd to restrict this from a status quo where they already exist, but I can't see any good design principle which would advocate having 1,000 types of arrow in the first place -- even in a game which is just about arrows!

In fact, as Timo has shown, it is even more than that. He has 39 types of arrow (and 39 types of bolt, stone). If you consider all +ve enchantments (+x,+y) up to +15, that makes 8,775 types of arrow, 8,775 types of blot, 8,775 types of stone. There is no way V (or any other game ever created) needs this kind of granularity. If I were maintaining V, I'd shift it to:

arrow
seeker arrow
arrow of fire
arrow of ice
arrow of poison

So 1 normal type and 4 kinds of upgrade. I'd increase the damage to compensate. Even just allowing the standard 39 types would seem much better than also having all the other pluses. Then again, I'm thankfully not maintaining V, so no need for anyone to worry.
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Old November 8, 2012, 20:39   #18
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What are the gains from making arrows (bolts, shots, etc.) so limited, though? Aside from stacking, of course. Consider that we need to match archery to melee, in terms of capability to deal damage, and Vanilla melee has similar levels of complexity as its arrows do. Especially we run into trouble if we want to remove slays from arrows, because then we lose a big part of the matching-ammo-to-target gameplay. Of course, just moving the slays to the launcher would make them overpowered, and a bit thematically weird (I could accept a launcher that got more crits against specific monsters, but one that launches its missiles harder against them would strike me as odd).

Sil can get away with not having slays because elemental brands are more relevant; Angband cannot. Sil also gets away with having generally very low pluses on its gear, and making those pluses much more significant. These are both major changes to how the game plays, though, and I don't think you could just blindly transplant them into Vanilla and expect things to stay balanced.
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Old November 9, 2012, 11:47   #19
Timo Pietilš
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
Sil can get away with not having slays because elemental brands are more relevant; Angband cannot.
I actually wouldn't mind if we reduce the selection a bit. Nobody actually collects arrows that slay giant for the sake of it having slay giant (might use for bigger enchantment), and acid as brand has not been there from the beginning, so just to reduce clutter we could remove some of the selection.

Also ammo types have increased by one (mithril ammo didn't exist from beginning).

My suggestion from removals are

Seeker arrows (make mithril 4d4 for arrows)
Slay giant and slay animal.
Wounding. (These are crap compared to just about any other ego)
Acid brand (no more Sauron-killers), maybe also elec brand.
Holy might (I complained about these when they were introduced, we just didn't need shooters to become even more powerful than they were).

Leave poison, fire, cold, undead, demon, dragon.

(cold actually doesn't make any realistic sense for arrows, acid and electricity are more realistic, but cold as element doesn't really make realistic sense anywhere else in the game too so I could argue that it is some magical element that just doesn't exist in real life).
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Old November 9, 2012, 11:59   #20
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Would you do the same for melee though? IMO a large part of Angband's charm is the vast number of different items you can find - some junk, some awesome - and a lot of work has gone into helping people enjoy this (squelch, attacking TMJ etc.).

Sil takes an entirely different approach which works for it, but would Angband without Slay Animal arrows still be Angband? (How would we kill Huan ?!)
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