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Old July 24, 2018, 15:02   #31
Ingwe Ingweron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
Ah ok that explains it. So there's a minimum dex for weight and random dwarf priest can fall under it for mace? Seems not good to me. It not just the standard roller, which should work: always been part of the game, serves like a random choice some games have. It's also a limit on how big a variation you can have in races etc.
I advocated for choosing the class AFTER the standard roll. Shouldn't we choose our vocation based on our innate talents and abilities (in this case race and stats)? Choosing to be a mage, then discovering @ is as dumb as a brick, a priest that is a fool, a warrior that is a wimp, etc., because the stat roll occurs after class choice seems ridiculous to me. I didn't find the answer that most people just use the "point-based" system (the program even states that it is "recommended") very satisfying. I think recommended only because the standard roller is BROKEN due to it's order of operation and noone wants to bother fixing it. Thus, the joy, spontaneity, and variability of randomly, but sensibly, choosing a class is denied.
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― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
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Old July 24, 2018, 16:36   #32
Derakon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingwe Ingweron View Post
I advocated for choosing the class AFTER the standard roll. Shouldn't we choose our vocation based on our innate talents and abilities (in this case race and stats)? Choosing to be a mage, then discovering @ is as dumb as a brick, a priest that is a fool, a warrior that is a wimp, etc., because the stat roll occurs after class choice seems ridiculous to me. I didn't find the answer that most people just use the "point-based" system (the program even states that it is "recommended") very satisfying. I think recommended only because the standard roller is BROKEN due to it's order of operation and noone wants to bother fixing it. Thus, the joy, spontaneity, and variability of randomly, but sensibly, choosing a class is denied.
When I play the game, I want to play as a particular class. I then choose race and stat allocation to refine how I want to play that class. For example, I might say "I want to play a priest", then I'd say "okay, do I want to be tough? Wise? Fragile? Fast-leveling?" and pick e.g. half-troll, dwarf, gnome, human accordingly. I always use point-buy because I have no interest in deliberately hobbling myself in the early game, which is what using the standard roller would do.

I'd be quite curious to know how many players want to choose things in the order I laid out above (class > race > stats), vs. how many go in the order you suggested (race > stats > class). My completely unsupported theory is, of course, that my approach is more popular.
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Old July 24, 2018, 17:01   #33
Ingwe Ingweron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
When I play the game, I want to play as a particular class. I then choose race and stat allocation to refine how I want to play that class. For example, I might say "I want to play a priest", then I'd say "okay, do I want to be tough? Wise? Fragile? Fast-leveling?" and pick e.g. half-troll, dwarf, gnome, human accordingly. I always use point-buy because I have no interest in deliberately hobbling myself in the early game, which is what using the standard roller would do.

I'd be quite curious to know how many players want to choose things in the order I laid out above (class > race > stats), vs. how many go in the order you suggested (race > stats > class). My completely unsupported theory is, of course, that my approach is more popular.
I agree, your approach is more popular, BUT is that because the other is not available? Thinking about it a bit more, I'd amend my order of operations in that the roll could come first. I keep going back and forth on it.

1. Choose point-based or standard (random) roll method.

2. Choose race (has to be before class choice, because of stat effects) [@ is born.]

3. Roll [@ has innate talents and abilities]

4. Choose class [@ chooses profession]

5. For point-based only, allow "buying/selling" of stats.

For point-based selection, your approach makes sense. My argument is wholly about the usefulness of the standard roller. We have random artifacts to add interest and variety to the game. The standard roller could also add interest and variety. As it stands right now, I think the standard roller is useless. Even if point-based remains the most popular (as it should), the standard roller could be made a viable method.

As for deliberately hobbling yourself, you can only do that with point-based. With the current standard roller you are likely to "randomly" hobble any @ you want to play, so likely in-fact, that it may seem deliberate (hence it being useless). If you could choose your class based on the stats you rolled, then it would actually be deliberate if you chose a class not suitable to the stats.
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“We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see.”
― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

Last edited by Ingwe Ingweron; July 24, 2018 at 17:07.
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Old July 24, 2018, 19:32   #34
wobbly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
I always use point-buy because I have no interest in deliberately hobbling myself in the early game, which is what using the standard roller would do.
You see this bit is quite clearly a circle. Of course no-one plays a part of the game that's broken. Why has it never been fixed? Well, because no-one plays it of course! Fair enough really, but I have use for it & I'm doubtful fixing it to the playable stage is hard, the game quite literally is setup to punish you for it, changing it so it doesn't isn't that tricky (changing it so it's balanced for normal rather then challenge play is harder).

I prefer points based system, but would play a standard roller from time to time. In fact do, or at least try to occassionally. Some days I want to play angband but not really sure what. There's a standard roller sitting there that'll get the RNG to give me a set of advantages & challenges just like it does in the rest of the game. I look at it & go "I'd love to play that but it's broken. The game will be horrible". Anyway will look at it.

Regarding the blows table, I'm not surprised it confuses so many people. Half the reason I'm obsessed by it at the moment is you don't lift a car bonnet & expect to see a jet engine. The thing reeks so hard of serious engineering that I suspect it's been lifted from there in the first place. I'm doubtful it'd have trouble dealing with mages & warriors, the thing looks capable of handling physical state changes, let alone a computer game.

Last edited by wobbly; July 24, 2018 at 21:15.
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Old July 25, 2018, 01:09   #35
Gwarl
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Just want to say I support the obsession with the blows table.

I have long been of the opinion that blows/round is off-base in V, and that there are mechanics at work that harmonise in strange and invisible ways, but are obscured by years of modifications.

There was definitely some serious work put into angband in years past. There was some serious work put into things like the door jamming system (using iron spikes) and the pseudo-ID system, it comes as no surprise to me that the blows table would be even more carefully fashioned.

I imagine there were equations and graph paper involved in the design thereof.
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Old July 25, 2018, 22:46   #36
wobbly
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Thanks. I appreciate it.

Saved myself a heap of fiddling & pulled the shift everything lever. Half weights again. Standard blows table. Adjusted_str reworked to be linear to the old 20 pt(which didn't move), which puts this mage right on the 1.1 blow mark. The priest below it has the same weight multiplier (2) as the mage. I think I'll play this 1 a bit, looks reasonable, at least early

Edit:Hmm, interesting the magic missile on the staff just displays in-game, but not on the dump. Anyway it's a 2d4 magic missile with a 5 turn recharge.
Edit 2:Hey nice, the half-troll priest just reaches 1.1 with a mace, none of the others. Rogue/Ranger don't move below 18/01 str (1/2x2), warrior & paladin are the equivalent of a 20% weight drop in weapons.
Edit3:Our little magestaff is too good, never accounted for +33% device bonus. Oh well it'll keep our tester alive longer

Code:
 [Angband 4.1.3 Character Dump]

 Name   Mage         Age             16          Self  RB  CB  EB   Best
 Race   Human        Height        6'4"   STR:     16  +0  -3  +0     13
 Class  Mage         Weight    16st 4lb   INT:     16  +0  +3  +0  18/10
 Title  Novice       Turns used:          WIS:     10  +0  +0  +0     10
 HP     10/10        Game             1   DEX:     17  +0  +0  +0     17
 SP     2/2          Standard         0   CON:     10  +0  -2  +0      8
                     Resting          0

 Level                  1    Armor        [0,+1]    Saving Throw     31%
 Cur Exp                0                           Stealth         Poor
 Max Exp                0    Melee        1d4,+0    Disarm - phys.   33%
 Adv Exp               13    To-hit        11,+2    Disarm - magic   39%
                             Blows      1.1/turn    Magic Devices     40
 Gold                 337                           Searching        11%
 Burden            9.5 lb    Shoot to-dam     +0    Infravision     0 ft
 Overweight      -80.4 lb    To-hit         7,+2    Speed         Normal
 Max Depth           Town    Shots        0/turn

 You are one of several children of a Townsman.  You are a credit to
 the family.  You have brown eyes, curly auburn hair, and a very dark
 complexion.


rAcid:............. Nexus:.............
rElec:............. Nethr:.............
rFire:............. Chaos:.............
rCold:............. Disen:.............
rPois:............. pFear:.............
rLite:............. pBlnd:.............
rDark:............. pConf:.............
Sound:............. pStun:.............
Shard:............. HLife:.............

Regen:............. Stea.:.............
  ESP:............. Sear.:.............
Invis:............. Infra:.............
FrAct:............. Tunn.:.............
Feath:............. Speed:.............
S.Dig:............. Blows:.............
ImpHP:............. Shots:.............
 Fear:............. Might:.............
Aggrv:............. Light:.............


  [Character Equipment]

a) a Magestaff (1d4) (+0,+0) {A1 !! {3lbs}}
     An inheritance from your family
     
     Combat info:
     1.1 blows/round.
     With +6 STR and +0 DEX you would get 1.3 blows
     With +0 STR and +3 DEX you would get 1.3 blows
     Average damage/round: 2.9.
     
f) a Wooden Torch (5000 turns)
     An inheritance from your family
     
     Radius 1 light.
     




  [Character Inventory]

a) a Book of Magic Spells [Magic for Beginners]
b) a Ration of Food
c) a Scroll of Word of Recall




  [Character Quiver]



[Player history]
      Turn   Depth  Note
         0      0'  Began the quest to destroy Morgoth.


  [Options]

  [User interface]

Use the roguelike command keyset             : no  (rogue_like_commands)
Use sound                                    : no  (use_sound)
Show damage player deals to monsters         : no  (show_damage)
Use old target by default                    : no  (use_old_target)
Always pickup items                          : no  (pickup_always)
Always pickup items matching inventory       : yes (pickup_inven)
Show flavors in object descriptions          : no  (show_flavors)
Highlight target with cursor                 : yes (show_target)
Highlight player with cursor between turns   : no  (highlight_player)
Disturb whenever viewable monster moves      : yes (disturb_near)
Show walls as solid blocks                   : no  (solid_walls)
Show walls with shaded background            : no  (hybrid_walls)
Color: Illuminate torchlight in yellow       : no  (view_yellow_light)
Color: Shimmer multi-colored things          : no  (animate_flicker)
Center map continuously                      : no  (center_player)
Color: Show unique monsters in purple        : no  (purple_uniques)
Automatically clear '-more-' prompts         : no  (auto_more)
Color: Player color indicates % hit points   : yes (hp_changes_color)
Allow mouse clicks to move the player        : yes (mouse_movement)
Notify on object recharge                    : no  (notify_recharge)
Show effective speed as multiplier           : no  (effective_speed)

  [Birth]

Generate a new, random artifact set          : no  (birth_randarts)
Generate connected stairs                    : yes (birth_connect_stairs)
Force player descent (never make up stairs)  : no  (birth_force_descend)
Word of Recall has no effect                 : no  (birth_no_recall)
Restrict creation of artifacts               : no  (birth_no_artifacts)
Stack objects on the floor                   : yes (birth_stacking)
Lose artifacts when leaving level            : no  (birth_lose_arts)
Show level feelings                          : yes (birth_feelings)
Increase gold drops but disable selling      : yes (birth_no_selling)
Start with a kit of useful gear              : yes (birth_start_kit)
Monsters learn from their mistakes           : no  (birth_ai_learn)
Know all runes on birth                      : no  (birth_know_runes)
Know all flavors on birth                    : no  (birth_know_flavors)
Persistent levels (experimental)             : no  (birth_levels_persist)
Code:
 [Angband 4.1.3 Character Dump]

 Name   Test         Age             36          Self  RB  CB  EB   Best
 Race   Dwarf        Height        3'9"   STR:     11  +2  -1  +0     12
 Class  Priest       Weight    12st 1lb   INT:     14  -3  -3  +0      8
 Title  Believer     Turns used:          WIS:     12  +2  +3  +0     17
 HP     13/13        Game             1   DEX:     15  -2  -1  +0     12
 SP     2/2          Standard         0   CON:      9  +2  +1  +0     12
                     Resting          0

 Level                  1    Armor        [0,+0]    Saving Throw     44%
 Cur Exp                0                           Stealth          Bad
 Max Exp                0    Melee        2d4,+0    Disarm - phys.   29%
 Adv Exp               14    To-hit        21,+0    Disarm - magic   29%
                             Blows      1.0/turn    Magic Devices     41
 Gold                  79                           Searching        13%
 Burden           19.3 lb    Shoot to-dam     +0    Infravision    50 ft
 Overweight      -64.6 lb    To-hit        12,+0    Speed         Normal
 Max Depth           Town    Shots        0/turn

 You are the only child of a Dwarven King.  You are a credit to the
 family.  You have dark brown eyes, straight black hair, a two foot
 beard, and a dark complexion.


rAcid:............. Nexus:.............
rElec:............. Nethr:.............
rFire:............. Chaos:.............
rCold:............. Disen:.............
rPois:............. pFear:.............
rLite:............. pBlnd:............+
rDark:............. pConf:.............
Sound:............. pStun:.............
Shard:............. HLife:.............

Regen:............. Stea.:.............
  ESP:............. Sear.:.............
Invis:............. Infra:............+
FrAct:............. Tunn.:............+
Feath:............. Speed:.............
S.Dig:............. Blows:.............
ImpHP:............. Shots:.............
 Fear:............. Might:.............
Aggrv:............. Light:.............


  [Character Equipment]

a) a Mace (2d4) (+0,+0) {5lbs}
     An inheritance from your family
     
     Combat info:
     1.0 blow/round.
     With +7 STR and +0 DEX you would attack a bit faster
     With +10 STR and +0 DEX you would get 1.1 blows
     With +0 STR and +5 DEX you would attack a bit faster
     With +7 STR and +5 DEX you would get 1.1 blows
     With +0 STR and +8 DEX you would get 1.1 blows
     Average damage/round: 5.
     
f) a Wooden Torch (5000 turns)
     An inheritance from your family
     
     Radius 1 light.
     




  [Character Inventory]

a) a Holy Book of Prayers [Beginners Handbook]
b) 3 Rations of Food
c) 2 Potions of Cure Serious Wounds
d) a Scroll of Word of Recall
e) 2 Wooden Torches (5000 turns)
     An inheritance from your family
     
     Radius 1 light.
     




  [Character Quiver]



[Player history]
      Turn   Depth  Note
         0      0'  Began the quest to destroy Morgoth.


  [Options]

  [User interface]

Use the roguelike command keyset             : no  (rogue_like_commands)
Use sound                                    : no  (use_sound)
Show damage player deals to monsters         : no  (show_damage)
Use old target by default                    : no  (use_old_target)
Always pickup items                          : no  (pickup_always)
Always pickup items matching inventory       : yes (pickup_inven)
Show flavors in object descriptions          : no  (show_flavors)
Highlight target with cursor                 : yes (show_target)
Highlight player with cursor between turns   : no  (highlight_player)
Disturb whenever viewable monster moves      : yes (disturb_near)
Show walls as solid blocks                   : no  (solid_walls)
Show walls with shaded background            : no  (hybrid_walls)
Color: Illuminate torchlight in yellow       : no  (view_yellow_light)
Color: Shimmer multi-colored things          : no  (animate_flicker)
Center map continuously                      : no  (center_player)
Color: Show unique monsters in purple        : no  (purple_uniques)
Automatically clear '-more-' prompts         : no  (auto_more)
Color: Player color indicates % hit points   : yes (hp_changes_color)
Allow mouse clicks to move the player        : yes (mouse_movement)
Notify on object recharge                    : no  (notify_recharge)
Show effective speed as multiplier           : no  (effective_speed)

  [Birth]

Generate a new, random artifact set          : no  (birth_randarts)
Generate connected stairs                    : yes (birth_connect_stairs)
Force player descent (never make up stairs)  : no  (birth_force_descend)
Word of Recall has no effect                 : no  (birth_no_recall)
Restrict creation of artifacts               : no  (birth_no_artifacts)
Stack objects on the floor                   : yes (birth_stacking)
Lose artifacts when leaving level            : no  (birth_lose_arts)
Show level feelings                          : yes (birth_feelings)
Increase gold drops but disable selling      : yes (birth_no_selling)
Start with a kit of useful gear              : yes (birth_start_kit)
Monsters learn from their mistakes           : no  (birth_ai_learn)
Know all runes on birth                      : no  (birth_know_runes)
Know all flavors on birth                    : no  (birth_know_flavors)
Persistent levels (experimental)             : no  (birth_levels_persist)

Last edited by wobbly; July 25, 2018 at 23:28.
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Old July 26, 2018, 00:13   #37
wobbly
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First trip almost uneventful. I like the staff but it needs toning down. It's a nice little retreat & blast item. I'll try 2d3 & 8 turns. Almost uneventful, on the way back to town, random grey mushroom in a corridor. Back,Back,Back, surely I move the right way eventually? Think I went down to about 10 hps on a lvl 7 mage.
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Old July 26, 2018, 00:39   #38
wobbly
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So I thought I'd look at the warrior but 1st I made phase door x10 more expensive, moved it into the BM, added 10 depths to everything with teleport. So that seemed a bit scum so I'm starting with 2. Plus the rogues still all drop them. Then I just made !clw super rare & started with 10. I'd take it out but it serves a purpose early so, well this'll be interesting anyway:

Code:
  [Angband 4.1.3 Character Dump]

 Name   Basher       Age             12          Self  RB  CB  EB   Best
 Race   Half-Orc     Height        5'5"   STR:     17  +2  +3  +0  18/40
 Class  Warrior      Weight     9st 9lb   INT:     10  -1  -2  +0      7
 Title  Rookie       Turns used:          WIS:     10  +0  -2  +0      8
 HP     20/20        Game             1   DEX:     17  +0  +2  +0  18/10
 SP     0/0          Standard         0   CON:     14  +1  +2  +0     17
                     Resting          0

 Level                  1    Armor        [8,+2]    Saving Throw     17%
 Cur Exp                0                           Stealth          Bad
 Max Exp                0    Melee        1d4,+3    Disarm - phys.   26%
 Adv Exp               11    To-hit        28,+4    Disarm - magic   18%
                             Blows      3.8/turn    Magic Devices     15
 Gold                   0                           Searching         8%
 Burden           17.9 lb    Shoot to-dam     +0    Infravision    30 ft
 Overweight     -150.0 lb    To-hit        18,+4    Speed         Normal
 Max Depth           Town    Shots        0/turn

 Your father was an Orc, but it is unacknowledged. You are the adopted
 child of a Serf.  You are a credit to the family.  You have blue-gray
 eyes, straight auburn hair, and an average complexion.


rAcid:............. Nexus:.............
rElec:............. Nethr:.............
rFire:............. Chaos:.............
rCold:............. Disen:.............
rPois:............. pFear:.............
rLite:............. pBlnd:.............
rDark:............+ pConf:.............
Sound:............. pStun:.............
Shard:............. HLife:.............

Regen:............. Stea.:.............
  ESP:............. Sear.:.............
Invis:............. Infra:............+
FrAct:............. Tunn.:.............
Feath:............. Speed:.............
S.Dig:............. Blows:.............
ImpHP:............. Shots:.............
 Fear:............. Might:.............
Aggrv:............. Light:.............


  [Character Equipment]

a) a Dagger (1d4) (+0,+0)
     An inheritance from your family
     
     Combat info:
     3.8 blows/round.
     With +0 STR and +1 DEX you would get 4.1 blows
     Average damage/round: 21.1.
     
f) a Wooden Torch (5000 turns)
     An inheritance from your family
     
     Radius 1 light.
     
g) Soft Leather Armour [8,+0]
     An inheritance from your family
     




  [Character Inventory]

a) a Ration of Food
b) 10 Potions of Cure Light Wounds {@q1}
c) a Potion of Berserk Strength
d) 2 Scrolls of Phase Door {@r4}
e) a Scroll of Word of Recall




  [Character Quiver]



[Player history]
      Turn   Depth  Note
         0      0'  Began the quest to destroy Morgoth.
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