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Old May 22, 2017, 23:20   #11
Pete Mack
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Or you could take a lesson from Sil, and subtract from damage for each piece of armor, rather than just using a formula based on total AC. The way it's set up now, everything is summed, so no one piece of armor ever contributes that much to the total.

All that said, I don't know why plain high AC alone should be so valuable. Even in Sil, it's rare that much gear is selected on damage reduction alone.

It's further worth noting that in Sil, damage reduction from armor is linear. In V, it's asymptotic with a hard cutoff
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Old May 22, 2017, 23:55   #12
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Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
asymptotic with a hard cutoff
i'm a nerd and i dont know what that means
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Old May 23, 2017, 00:50   #13
Gwarl
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I actually think AC holds up very well in angband. Far better than in any other game I've played with a stat called AC. It is useful and it helps a lot - you can tell when you're wielding gondricam and when you aren't.
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Old May 23, 2017, 00:51   #14
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i'm a nerd and i dont know what that means
As your AC gets higher, your damage reduction gets closer to the maximum, but the rate at which it's getting there is always slowing down so you never reach it. Which is IMO a good system.
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Old May 23, 2017, 08:14   #15
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It means that
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i'm a nerd and i dont know what that means
When you go from AC 0 to AC 1, damage goes down by 0.25%. When you go from AC 100 to AC 101, it only goes down by 0.16%. From 200 to 201, by 0.11%, or less than half as much as the first point.
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Old May 23, 2017, 14:51   #16
Estie
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All that said, I don't know why plain high AC alone should be so valuable.
Physical combat is the very basic of dungeoneering rogue-likes. You swing an imaginary weapon to inflict damage and wear imaginary armour to prevent it, in simulation of combat in medieval times.

Adding other layers with magic and special attacks is great and has been done more than once at various points to increase complexity. But look at the way high resists were implemented: great care was taken to not make the old base elements superfluous. Resist base is as essential a part of the kit as it was in olden Moria versions before high elements got introduced.

In contrast, base elemental resists dominate physical protection. I would like to see a game where you use a magic full plate mail over a robe of resistance (at least as a melee character). Carry the robe as a switch for special occasions, but dont run around "naked" and expect to live.

Diablo I would be an example of this situation. If you unequip your heavy armour as a warrior, you lose your ability to fight through tough encounters.
Elemental resists matter too, but the basis is always the physical combat.
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Old May 24, 2017, 00:53   #17
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In contrast, base elemental resists dominate physical protection. I would like to see a game where you use a magic full plate mail over a robe of resistance (at least as a melee character). Carry the robe as a switch for special occasions, but dont run around "naked" and expect to live.
I actually did switch out a robe of resistance for average adamantite plate in a recent game, and was indeed far tougher against regular monsters even though it left me with some base resistance holes. Like I say Angband's system really holds up quite well here, especially in comparison to other games. It isn't broke and doesn't need fixing IMO.
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Old May 24, 2017, 01:07   #18
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I actually did switch out a robe of resistance for average adamantite plate in a recent game, and was indeed far tougher against regular monsters even though it left me with some base resistance holes. Like I say Angband's system really holds up quite well here, especially in comparison to other games. It isn't broke and doesn't need fixing IMO.
Well I strongly disagree. Not saying you cant use Adamantite plate and win, but what was your speed like ? Did you carry all the consumables you wanted ? At which depth did you find that plate ? Why do you prefer plate over resist robe and just use more phase door scrolls ?

If I play ironman and want to win badly, I dont fool around and use the robe. Situations where the plate is better do exist, but are far too rare to make precautions necessary.
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Old May 24, 2017, 01:13   #19
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Well I strongly disagree. Not saying you cant use Adamantite plate and win, but what was your speed like ? Did you carry all the consumables you wanted ? At which depth did you find that plate ? Why do you prefer plate over resist robe and just use more phase door scrolls ?

If I play ironman and want to win badly, I dont fool around and use the robe. Situations where the plate is better do exist, but are far too rare to make precautions necessary.
Significantly better in most situations, since most of my enemies weren't using elemental attacks. These days I will tolerate a -1 or -2 speed. I found it in the DL20's IIRC.

Honestly, try consciously aiming for high AC when playing and then switch it all out for some much lower AC gear and see if you notice that you take more damage. the difference between robe/adamantite was huge, I will sometimes take a -1 to speed to switch soft leather armour for brigandine. It is worth it. Another case in point is red book caster's shield spell - you can turn on your AC bonus and notice you're getting hurt less even when your AC is already high.
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Old May 24, 2017, 01:49   #20
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just to be clear, i don't think the current system is bad. currently, with AC 200 you can melee greater wyrms, so obviously the AC system doesn't need a buff. i was just asking what happens if you try to break the numbers through the use of randarts .. minmaxing, so to speak.

now, looking at practically every P&P RPG ever, AC has a spread that, if you go above it, mobs will simply not hit you. also most mobs in traditional RPGs do their damage by melee, or otherwise by melee attack rolls.

in the D&D world for example, if you happen to find a plate +5, shield +5 and ring of protection +3, you are pretty much untouchable by anything, Tarrasque included.
(note that, in D&D, you get far more reduction from the inherent AC of the item, rather than the magic bonus. i.e a +2 plate is [7,+2] and it's already a substantial magic item)

also, the melee system is based on a yes-or-no value, and it's not expected to exceed a range, so if you go above a certain value, instead of getting diminishing returns, you become invincible.

if anything, i would prefer a system where lighter armour offers less protection. the hit penality (-1,-1) etc ... were a good tradeoff and i don't know why they have been removed.

a robe of resist fire should be great for resisting fire, not axe blows.

i'd also like to see more importance being given to the to-hit values, compared to the to-dam value.
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