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Old May 30, 2017, 13:47   #11
Huqhox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
I'd quite like to have two non-spellcaster classes: melee-based Warrior and some kind of ranged attacker class - maybe specialised towards crossbows?
Perhaps Rangers shouldn't be half casters? Thematically it makes a lot of sense for Paladins as they are 'holy avengers' and also for Rogues since it's long been established in e.g. D&D that they learn some casting ability. I'm not sure that's thematically true of Rangers, except that monster archer types fire magic missiles (to avoid the problem of free ammo) so it seems symmetric that Rangers can too.

Obviously that's a massive change, but thought I'd put that one out there...
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Old May 30, 2017, 13:59   #12
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Just reminding everyone that 4.2 is slated for race/class revamp (among other things), with particular reference to this thread.
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Old May 30, 2017, 15:16   #13
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Barely has to use any keys other than the arrows
On the contrary -- a priest could get by using only arrows and p; a warrior needs r, q, a, u, z, ...
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Old May 30, 2017, 15:40   #14
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I rather like that Angband doesn't hew closely to the by-now established tropes for fantasy classes. Rogues in Angband are actually very skilled melee combatants (barely less capable than paladins). Mages are not completely incompetent at fighting, and may well want to get their hands dirty from time to time. Everyone, regardless of magical aptitude, makes heavy use of magical devices. These are all good things.

In other words, I don't have a problem with classes all being generalists to some extent. Of course there should be things that each class excels at, and things that they're "worst" at, but even the things they're worst at they should still be capable of doing. Even a mage can fight. Even a warrior can sneak.
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Old May 30, 2017, 16:15   #15
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What happened to warriors is this:

Warriors used to have 6 blow max compared to 5 for hybrids and 4 for casters. Then someone pointed out - correctly, imo - that the heaviest weapons shouldnt allow for full amount of blows even with maxed stats. Enter fractional blows, now everything is possible.

But this is hard to implement, getting everything right, so it was done in too simple a way where only the last absolute blow is affected - blow 5 -> 6 - instead of the last blow the class has. So only the warrior doesnt get his full amount of blows with the heaviest weapons. And since the majority of endgame weapons are - rightfully so - of the heavy types, in effect the warrior lost his endgame damage advantage.
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Old May 30, 2017, 17:29   #16
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So, the question is, buff warriors or nerf rogues?

I know warriors can already get 1k+ damage, but that is against specific opponents and carrying swaps. Slay Evil is what really counts, and Acid vs Sauron. Being able to do 800dps vs some lich is irrelevant, because those mobs cannot kill you, only maybe cost you a RLL and a CCW.

Maybe warriors can get pConf (40), HLife (50), even i dare say, pStun (50), to make up for the 16% dps loss?

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Old May 30, 2017, 18:04   #17
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Or maybe they could just get their extra blow back? We could even implement it as a flat "gain 1 bonus blow with all weapons at clvl X" like with rangers' extra shots (that should be extra might, I will never stop agitating for that ).
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Old May 30, 2017, 18:04   #18
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The issue is not between warriors and rogues alone, its between warriors and every other hybrid. The paladin is arguably more powerfull than the rogue in the endgame.

If big heavy weapons are to not give full blows, then that has to be implemented properly, that is affecting all classes not only the warrior. That may be hard to get right, but would fix the warrior (by nerfing other melee classes). Alternatively, giving warrior full 6 blows with MoD would do the same and is probably easier to do (buffing warrior). Either would be better than the current situation.
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Old May 30, 2017, 19:02   #19
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So pure casters max out at 4 blows, hybrids at 5, warriors at 6 including heavy weapons. 20% dps over a paladin would make it balanced.


Excludig randarts, because LOL. 6D5 +30 longsword +2 blows. Didnt even need slay evil.
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Old May 30, 2017, 19:13   #20
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I don't see why Warrior needs to be balanced towards other classes. I'd prefer to keep the generalist fighter model as is is today or alternatively change it to a Melee specialist with the extra blow (as before) but much nerfed missile.
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