Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old May 31, 2017, 14:40   #31
Sky
Knight
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Glasgae
Age: 44
Posts: 667
Sky is on a distinguished road
I dont think thats true. I think the benefits are too small and the disadvantages too great. I would grind the dungeob for hours just to get the cloak that activates for resistance, or else every great wyrm is a 800hp loss encounter.
Sky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 31, 2017, 14:51   #32
Pete Mack
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,132
Donated: $40
Pete Mack is on a distinguished road
@sky--
The way to avoid that is by not fighting elemental Wyrms as a warrior (and not fighting great storm wyrms as a paladin or priest until your healing failure rate is low enough.)
If you must fight them, use archery from a distance to get their HP down. Breath attenuation makes a ridiculous difference (though this will be reduced very soon.)

Great Bile Wyrms aren't so much of a threat, since your equipment will limit the damage to at most 277HP, same as Great Swamp Wyrms.
Pete Mack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 31, 2017, 16:18   #33
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 7,934
Derakon is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky View Post
Two different concepts. Two different posts.

Right now the advantages over rogue is a small hit bonus and a small hp bonus.
You should pay attention to more than just the clvl-50 analysis. Of course warriors don't stand out very well in the endgame; that's when all the other classes have finished putting together their bags of tricks, everyone is at max stats, etc. But if that were all that mattered, we'd start the game at dlvl99 with perfect equipment and inventory.

The great advantage of warriors is that they're strong from the start of the game. The other classes, even the hybrids, have much slower starts. They have to split their stats more carefully, because they have a casting stat to support in addition to the physical stats. Their combat is therefore substantially weaker, and their other tricks aren't all that great (especially for the hybrids). Meanwhile, warriors come roaring out of the gate and can blitz the first 2000' at least with ease. Between their class modifiers and the lack of a casting stat to worry about, they have fantastic STR/DEX/CON.

I'm not saying you can't play quickly with other classes (you can certainly powerdive faster if you have a reliable means of stair detection), just that warriors handle a fast-and-loose playstyle much better than the other classes do, at least in the early game.

Once everyone's finished stat gain, warriors lose some of their shine. At that point all they really have going for them is a bigger hit die, a higher STR/DEX/CON cap -- which equipment modifiers eventually make largely irrelevant -- and a slightly better melee blows formula.

Incidentally, HP comparisons are easy to make. CON bonuses are identical for all classes, so if we assume that everyone maxes CON, then the only difference between classes is the hit die. Every extra side on your hit die (every +d1) is on average equal to +25 HP at the end of the game. Warriors have a +d9 hit die (on top of the racial hit die), mages have +d0, rogues and paladins have +d6. This is ignoring the fact that mages are more likely to play as gnomes (d8 hit die) and warriors more likely to play as half-trolls (d12 hit die).
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 31, 2017, 17:28   #34
Sky
Knight
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Glasgae
Age: 44
Posts: 667
Sky is on a distinguished road
So you are against both reinstating the extra blow, and the innate resistances? Would adding either make the warrior an unbalanced class?
Sky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 31, 2017, 18:13   #35
Derakon
Prophet
 
Derakon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 7,934
Derakon is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky View Post
So you are against both reinstating the extra blow, and the innate resistances? Would adding either make the warrior an unbalanced class?
I'm not necessarily against the extra blow, but I'm less thrilled by the resists/protections. Bonus passives can be extremely powerful, especially when talking about status ailments, and I wouldn't hand them out lightly. I don't think they'd necessarily make the warrior unbalanced, but they'd make the "equipment minigame" too easy, which would make warriors less interesting to play as IMO.
Derakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 31, 2017, 18:22   #36
Sky
Knight
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Glasgae
Age: 44
Posts: 667
Sky is on a distinguished road
well but the warrior isn't "interesting" by any stretch of the imagination. you go in, you bonk the mobs on the head with a big piece of steel.
also, pFear is already there, HLife isn't much of a game changer, pConf is great but you are likely to have that anyway. pStun is also not really a game changer, sure it's an additional safety and i know personally you can die to a pack of Plasma Hounds (maybe also to Master Mystic, but they won't make you go nostun->knockedout in 1 round), but it's one of those things you can do without, like pBlind, and very often you don't need to bother at all.

on the other hand, an extra blow can and will do more damage where it counts, in the fights against uniques.

i do think warriors should hurt in melee, and i do think rangers should hurt in ranged; i don't think rangers should get an extra shot but i do think a +1 shooting power should replace it, and i think warriors should have something similar.
Sky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 31, 2017, 18:29   #37
bio_hazard
Knight
 
bio_hazard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 568
bio_hazard is on a distinguished road
So like (+1 +1) [+5] for every 10 levels (or CL15,30,45)
bio_hazard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 31, 2017, 21:53   #38
Nick
Vanilla maintainer
 
Nick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canberra, Australia
Age: 52
Posts: 6,559
Donated: $60
Nick is on a distinguished road
Personally, warrior is the only class I wouldn't change
__________________
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
Nick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 1, 2017, 06:08   #39
luneya
Adept
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 117
luneya is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
Personally, warrior is the only class I wouldn't change
But the main change that people have been pushing for isn't really a change, but more of a putting-things-back-the-way-they-always-were in the form of restoring the extra blow. Which I agree should happen. I also agree that the more radical changes suggested by others aren't worthwhile; just give warriors their extra blow back and consider them well-balanced.

EDIT: My understanding is that warrior didn't directly "lose" their blows bonus over other classes, but rather the blows/weight formula was changed so that they couldn't max out blows on most endgame weapons. If this is correct, then instead of changing warrior directly, an alternative solution that might be better is to simply add a line of code that if str and dex are both 18/**, characters receive their class-based max blows regardless of weapon weight. This seems like a fair compromise. The only thing that it will unbalance is Grond, and frankly, once you have that, balance doesn't matter.

Last edited by luneya; June 1, 2017 at 09:07.
luneya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 1, 2017, 10:50   #40
Sky
Knight
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Glasgae
Age: 44
Posts: 667
Sky is on a distinguished road
Grond is bleh anyway.
Sky is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
advice for HT warrior quarague Vanilla 6 January 3, 2015 21:56
Warrior - what to carry ulrichvonbek Vanilla 16 March 22, 2011 16:29
Help with warrior ask2 Vanilla 5 March 9, 2011 22:00
Warrior gets hosed momo125 Vanilla 1 January 25, 2009 08:29
Warrior ConnorMcLaud Vanilla 7 January 21, 2009 14:27


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:46.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.