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Old June 29, 2017, 08:28   #41
Sky
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let me make you a V example.

i'm DL33 and i melee an orc .. or something. Uruk, halforc, something that dies in 2 rounds at most. the key here, is that i have meleed a million of these things.

i hit it, my hp goes down. i hit it again, my hp goes has fallen from 250 to 100. my reaction is "wth ?". i take 1 more step in an empty room, dead.

some invisible dragon killed me.

sure, no seeInvisible is stupid. but it's not weird that most people tackling angband will just think "uhu, ring of damage +14 at such a low DL, i better wear that".

the reaction to immediate visual clues (empty room, 1 mob) is something which players will always have for long before they decide to not stick with angband and instead try darkest dungeon or something else.

diving is another example of an aspect of angband which is counter-intuitive; i'm too weak to clear DL20, let me read two scrolls of deep descent.
Sure, you can do this once you master the game, once you learn to evaluate all aspects which are not immediately obvious to the average player, but, what if you don't? What is you *are* an average player?

Are you really telling me that someone who thinks "i'm still levelling up pretty fast here at this DL, and i'm finding useful gear, maybe i better not risk going down any further for a while" is approaching the game in the wrong way?


ANY game will become too easy when you master it. once you do master it, is it even fun playing? i really don't play FTL anymore because i'm either playing Medium and it's too easy, as i know exactly what to do in all circumstances, or Hard, which is just gambling with the RNG. i dont find either to be fun.

i want to make it clear that i am not saying (although it may seem like it) that "Angband is too hard, make it easier", but rather "Angband has unusual difficulty spikes, make it more even".

Diving, and various "1337" playing techniques, should be something you do once you master the game, not something *required* to play. I'm ok with OOD mobs, escapes, detection, im just not ok when the game says "ok i decided that you die".
Here specifically, it's "you just started, the only option i'm giving you is to melee mobs (it's ok, you have more hp) but IM NOT GIVING YOU ANY HP".

It hardly matters that you will have 1000hp at CL50. When you are a CL3 paladin, and 2 soldier, 2 priests and 2 bandits decide to wake up at the same time, what do you do?
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Old June 29, 2017, 09:23   #42
Huqhox
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I think we're all sympathetic to what you are saying Sky, and certainly I don't think the first few levels are too easy - neither are they too hard.

Yes occasionally your CL3 Paladin gets ambushed by creatures it won't be able to handle and in that case you will die, regardless of how well you have prepared. After all the RNG does hate you. But that's offset by the time when you do manage to defeat a tricky mob, squeaking through with 1hp left.

Angband does have significant difficulty spikes but this is something that is up for discussion in 4.2. 4.1 removed a lot of tedium of detection with the new trap and secret door code, and rune id makes idenification more streamlined so now it is onto the races, classes and monsters. It is improving all the time.

I remember when floating eyes (a DL1 monster) would paralyse your character automatically if you stepped next to one. So your brand new character (unless it was a gnome with built in FA) would walk around a corner and end up next to a floating eye they couldn't have detected. End of game. That doesn't happen any more.

Hounds also used to be a real pain; as soon as they appeared around DL18 they were always in large groups and even if you were being a good @ if you couldn't deal with them you'd have to abandon the level.

So yes Angband is still hard (and yes a game that relies on the player learning an awful lot about how the game works in order to progress) but that learning curve is getting smoother. And that is why your input is valuable. Those of us who have been playing for years and years do lose perspective on just how hard this game is to learn. So keep it up.

To answer the specific point of this thread: if you roll low for you first HP increases then personally that just means I spend more time at the lower levels. I'm not a power diver and don't mind wandering around within stair distance of the town for a bit. There's plenty of XP, kit and $ available to maybe give @ a fighting chance even with the poor rolls
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Old June 29, 2017, 10:07   #43
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OTOH these unfortunate hit die rolls only happen half the time, you also could be lucky. You could also be unlucky on early dungeon levels to step into a room with some foes and a shrieker mushroom which could get you killed regardless of how lucky you were with hit die rolls.

Nick is right, Angband is for masochists.

Last edited by Mondkalb; June 29, 2017 at 13:22.
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Old June 29, 2017, 11:49   #44
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I'm fairly neutral on levelling out the starting hps. If you take a look at poscheng it in fact does (base hps).

In the scenario given paladins have detect evil. Any character other than the human warrior (no infravision) wandered straight in to that situation. If you can't phase out or retreat back to a corridor, what are you sposed to do? Honestly you're sposed to die, learn & adjust your tactics.

As an addenum: removing lanterns from the general store inadvertitly screwed human warriors a little. I'd consider at least giving them a lantern in their starting gear to balance out the lack of infravision.
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Old June 29, 2017, 12:18   #45
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Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
Sky--I really do understand your point: If you spend a lot of time at low CL, a few extra points can make a big difference. But it's a discussion we've had dozens of times here: focusing on this issue tends to teach the wrong lessons. I was an absolutely hopeless player until Eddie Grove posted Tales of the Bold on rgra. You don't need to play optimally. But clearing levels, or just staying shallow for too long, makes it much, much harder to learn how to deal with levels below 3000'.
I hope this point doesn't get lost in the rest of this thread. Angband is unlike most games that I've played in that it seems to teach new players terrible habits. I had the exact same experience, playing in what I now realise was a ridiculous manner for years until I read Eddie's posts. Players who find their way here get plenty of good advice, which they may or may not choose to take, but what happens to those who don't? Fixing this problem, if people agree that it is a problem, is probably hard, but here's a relatively easy change that could be made: Introduce a town unique like FA's Complainer, but instead of random bug reports have him (or her, or it) dispense snippets of useful, but not obvious, advice.
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Old June 29, 2017, 12:29   #46
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I hope this point doesn't get lost in the rest of this thread. Angband is unlike most games that I've played in that it seems to teach new players terrible habits. I had the exact same experience, playing in what I now realise was a ridiculous manner for years until I read Eddie's posts. Players who find their way here get plenty of good advice, which they may or may not choose to take, but what happens to those who don't? Fixing this problem, if people agree that it is a problem, is probably hard, but here's a relatively easy change that could be made: Introduce a town unique like FA's Complainer, but instead of random bug reports have him (or her, or it) dispense snippets of useful, but not obvious, advice.
That's already basically in V - the shopkeepers give hints (from the hints.txt file).
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Old June 29, 2017, 13:16   #47
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That's already basically in V - the shopkeepers give hints (from the hints.txt file).
That's good. It's been quite a while since I played V.
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Old June 29, 2017, 14:13   #48
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If you'll pardon my laziness (not downloading 4.1 to check it out), have the hints been updated in 4.1? The hints in 4.0.5 contain some stuff that is irrelevant or not very relevant or misleading in that version.
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Old June 29, 2017, 15:00   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky View Post
let me make you a V example.

i'm DL33 and i melee an orc .. or something. Uruk, halforc, something that dies in 2 rounds at most. the key here, is that i have meleed a million of these things.

i hit it, my hp goes down. i hit it again, my hp goes has fallen from 250 to 100. my reaction is "wth ?". i take 1 more step in an empty room, dead.

some invisible dragon killed me.
So what did you learn from this encounter?
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Old June 29, 2017, 15:42   #50
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I think Angband's early game is far too easy. I made it to DL27 on literally my first attempt (completely unspoiled). So much power creep has made the first 10-20 levels pretty much just a matter of finding the stairs down.

Potions of cure light wounds cost 20 gold. Scrolls of phase door cost 15. There are infinite amounts of both readily available from the start. There's nothing on the first few floors that can't be beaten with these two consumables alone.
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