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View Poll Results: What do you feel about ego/artifact drops in 3.4.x (multiple selection alowed)
Artifacts are ok 8 72.73%
Artifact drops are too rare 2 18.18%
Artifact drops are too common 1 9.09%
Egos are ok 2 18.18%
Egos are too rare 6 54.55%
Egos are too common 3 27.27%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 11. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 11, 2012, 02:00   #1
fizzix
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Poll: Vanilla item quality drop rates

I'd like to get some feedback on what people feel about the changes we made to item drops in v3.4.x. Artifacts and ego items are rarer overall. I made a poll for general results, but specific feedback about certain item or item types not being dropped frequently enough (or too frequently) are appreciated.
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Old November 11, 2012, 02:48   #2
Malak Darkhunter
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I'm fine with artifacts being rare, I think artifact drops got a little common starting about DL60. I do think that ego's need to be a little more common though, lack of good gear and resist base can be aggravating.

Some slay brands seem a little redudant and could probably be done away with, I don't usually pay much attention to Slay_Giant and Slay_Demon, Slay_Dragon (unless it Calris or equivalent ) Slay_Undead, Slay_Orc , wouldn't these be covered under Slay_Evil ? Elemental brands can give as much benefit as these slays anyway.
You could hypotheticaly get rid of some slays and make other ego types more common to compensate.
I've never quite understood why an item has Slay_orc , Slay_trolls, and then Slays all evil creatures, why not just give it Slay_Evil?
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Old November 11, 2012, 03:35   #3
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The reason more specific slays exist is because Slay Evil is a weak slay -- it only doubles the damage dice, while all other slays at least triple them (and the *Slay* effects quintuple them).

Haven't you looked at the damage display on the 'I'nspect screen and noticed that it gives different readouts for evil monsters vs. the more specific slays?
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Old November 11, 2012, 03:50   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malak Darkhunter View Post
I'm fine with artifacts being rare, I think artifact drops got a little common starting about DL60. I do think that ego's need to be a little more common though, lack of good gear and resist base can be aggravating.

Some slay brands seem a little redudant and could probably be done away with, I don't usually pay much attention to Slay_Giant and Slay_Demon, Slay_Dragon (unless it Calris or equivalent ) Slay_Undead, Slay_Orc , wouldn't these be covered under Slay_Evil ? Elemental brands can give as much benefit as these slays anyway.
You could hypotheticaly get rid of some slays and make other ego types more common to compensate.
So there is a lot of room to play with random egos and levels. Right now I'm not sure it uses stuff properly, but I can probably fix it if there's enough desire for changes. I can also run stats to see how well selection options work, but theoretically we can fine tune which egos appear on which levels. (we specify min level, max level and a commonness value)

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I've never quite understood why an item has Slay_orc , Slay_trolls, and then Slays all evil creatures, why not just give it Slay_Evil?
Slay evil is a 2x multiplier. all the other slays are 3x. The *slays* are 5x.
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Old November 11, 2012, 12:23   #5
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I find that after a certain level there are far too many egos created. 10-20 per level if there is a large group of monsters with drops.

I'd say you should find egos about twice as often as artifacts.

The solution I think is to not create equipment below a certain standard at each level so no "slay orc" or "resist fire" after dungeon level 40 say.

Artifacts are ok up to the later levels when they get a bit too common. As I said in the other thread I think that the chances of getting an artifact should not increase by much as you get deeper, just the quality increases if you do get one. They should still be very rare even on level 99.
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Old November 11, 2012, 14:56   #6
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Originally Posted by TJS View Post

Artifacts are ok up to the later levels when they get a bit too common. As I said in the other thread I think that the chances of getting an artifact should not increase by much as you get deeper, just the quality increases if you do get one. They should still be very rare even on level 99.
The total number of items is much higher in the later levels. You have far more monsters with drops and far more vaults and special rooms appearing.

Having a flatter distribution for artifacts is something that I've been thinking about, but I'm not sure how feasible it is. Regardless, you will always find more artifacts later than earlier just because you can do things like kill a bunch of barbazu later. This will always be true unless we make artifacts less common as you descend, which seems a little perverse.
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Old November 11, 2012, 15:11   #7
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Originally Posted by fizzix View Post
The total number of items is much higher in the later levels. You have far more monsters with drops and far more vaults and special rooms appearing.

Having a flatter distribution for artifacts is something that I've been thinking about, but I'm not sure how feasible it is. Regardless, you will always find more artifacts later than earlier just because you can do things like kill a bunch of barbazu later. This will always be true unless we make artifacts less common as you descend, which seems a little perverse.
But why can you kill more monsters as you descend? Shouldn't the levels roughly be balanced so you can kill the same % of monsters on each level? If you can easily kill loads of monsters on later levels then they're obviously appearing too deep.

Groups of monsters should be less likely to carry objects (you can rationalise it by saying that they pool their treasure finds rather than keep them all for themselves). Clearing a dragon pit drops absurd amounts of loot.

Also why have more vaults on later levels? I'd be delighted to find a vault on dlvl 10.

Last edited by TJS; November 11, 2012 at 15:16.
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Old November 11, 2012, 15:13   #8
Mikko Lehtinen
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Originally Posted by TJS View Post
Groups of monsters should be less likely to carry objects (you can rationalise it by saying that they pool their treasure finds rather than keep them all for themselves).
In Halls of Mist, group monsters usually drop just gold instead of objects. I got bored looting orcs.
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Old November 11, 2012, 16:10   #9
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Originally Posted by Mikko Lehtinen View Post
In Halls of Mist, group monsters usually drop just gold instead of objects. I got bored looting orcs.
But gold actually matters in Mist. You seldom have as much as you need, and never has as much as you would want. In Mist, I'd rather find a nice pile of gold than a weapon or armour.
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Old November 11, 2012, 16:33   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJS View Post
But why can you kill more monsters as you descend? Shouldn't the levels roughly be balanced so you can kill the same % of monsters on each level? If you can easily kill loads of monsters on later levels then they're obviously appearing too deep.
Vanilla puts no upper bound on what levels monsters can appear, only a lower bound. Monsters get slightly less frequent as you descend only because more monsters are available to choose from. Furthermore deeper monsters tend to drop more items than lower level monsters. This makes some intuitive sense as well, you'd expect a great wyrm to have a larger hoard than a young dragon. Changing these mechanics is a far far bigger change than is likely to be acceptable in 3.5. I'm going to assume that we have to frame all of our changes in a game where later levels drop more items.

Nonetheless we can change the rate of artifact/ego drop per item to be less dependent on level, and this is what I'm trying to get feedback on.

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Groups of monsters should be less likely to carry objects (you can rationalise it by saying that they pool their treasure finds rather than keep them all for themselves). Clearing a dragon pit drops absurd amounts of loot.
That's true for pretty much everything except for the demon groups. Demon groups are dangerous though, so I feel this isn't so bad.

Dragons are solitary creatures except in pits or in ancalagon's escort. (Ainu pits drop more loot too)

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Also why have more vaults on later levels? I'd be delighted to find a vault on dlvl 10.
Can you break into a vault on dlevel 10? Can you handle a 10 level OoD monster at that depth. Probably not. I've come across early vaults, and I almost always have to avoid them.

Nonetheless, tweaking vault (and pit) frequency is possible, and we should discuss that separately.
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