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Old May 4, 2011, 06:24   #161
Chud
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A couple of comments on the currently nightly, the first I've played that's newer than 3.2.0... overall, I like it!

I definitely like the changes to dungeon generation. I haven't found any new level styles yet, but I like that they are generally more spare. It feels a little more dungeon-like, and less cluttered. Thumbs up.

Possible bug: I used - successfully, I think - a staff of detect invisible, but it did not show me the invisible creature that I know was nearby, unless I just missed it. I'll try to recreate this to be sure the next time something touches me .
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Old May 4, 2011, 06:49   #162
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Originally Posted by Chud View Post

I definitely like the changes to dungeon generation. I haven't found any new level styles yet, but I like that they are generally more spare. It feels a little more dungeon-like, and less cluttered. Thumbs up.
Yeah I now agree. At first I thought it *too* spare, but now I like it after more play. There are a number of types of other levels. More variety than prior versions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chud View Post
Possible bug: I used - successfully, I think - a staff of detect invisible, but it did not show me the invisible creature that I know was nearby, unless I just missed it. I'll try to recreate this to be sure the next time something touches me .
Known bug with duplicate tickets on Trac.
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Old May 4, 2011, 08:52   #163
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At first I thought it *too* spare, but now I like it after more play.
Some are still too plain for me it's probably just change resistance after years of 'fully populated' floors. That said, if a level contains only 5-6 rooms then you're onto the next one within a couple of minutes so it's no hardship. I've just found a couple of great new levels in the 23 April nightly, though: sort of 'rooms superimposed on caverns' style. Top work, room person!

Still not liking the Pac-Man levels. They disturb my suspension of disbelief...
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Old May 4, 2011, 09:41   #164
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Still not liking the Pac-Man levels. They disturb my suspension of disbelief...
Those should be vaults, not entire levels.
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Old May 4, 2011, 12:39   #165
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Some are still too plain for me it's probably just change resistance after years of 'fully populated' floors. That said, if a level contains only 5-6 rooms then you're onto the next one within a couple of minutes so it's no hardship. I've just found a couple of great new levels in the 23 April nightly, though: sort of 'rooms superimposed on caverns' style. Top work, room person!

Still not liking the Pac-Man levels. They disturb my suspension of disbelief...
I wanted to add my thoughts. I like the change in levels. It has proven fun to play the smaller ones; more than I thought.

It seems that I always get level feelings now, regardless of how long I have stayed at the current level before Recalling or climbing stairs. Is this a conscious decision because of the smaller levels?
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Old May 4, 2011, 16:04   #166
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Those should be vaults, not entire levels.
Uhh... some levels ARE entire Vaults..

Play a little more and you will come across one or two.
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Old May 4, 2011, 17:07   #167
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Originally Posted by Spacebux View Post
Uhh... some levels ARE entire Vaults..

Play a little more and you will come across one or two.
I think Eddie is saying that the way they are now (entire level) is wrong and that they should be made into a (large) room-type.
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Old May 4, 2011, 19:54   #168
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I think Eddie is saying that the way they are now (entire level) is wrong and that they should be made into a (large) room-type.
There ought to be general rules about what a level is. E.g. a minimum number of staircases. If you believe, as I do, that the player should be allowed to plan on escapes, a minimum diameter [empty space to empty space] of twice the range of one of teleport self or teleport other or portal. I am not sure even the old levels are large enough! The problem with teleport self swapping you back and forth between two small areas would be lessened with larger levels.

I guess I'd think tiny levels are OK if those escapes teleported you or the monster to an entirely new level akin to alter reality or banishment.

There is a rule that you are not even *allowed* to descend stairs into a vault. IMO the maze turns that rule upside down.

Who knows, maybe they improve the game, but so far they just feel wrong to me. It is going to take some time to unlearn assumptions that have been reinforced for years.
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Old May 4, 2011, 21:21   #169
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Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
There ought to be general rules about what a level is. E.g. a minimum number of staircases. If you believe, as I do, that the player should be allowed to plan on escapes, a minimum diameter [empty space to empty space] of twice the range of one of teleport self or teleport other or portal. I am not sure even the old levels are large enough!

Who knows, maybe they improve the game, but so far they just feel wrong to me. It is going to take some time to unlearn assumptions that have been reinforced for years.
Can you imagine being (un)lucky enough to have that maze at L99-100? Lots of fun possibilities there.

I would, though, like to also see a couple of frikk'n huge levels, not just reduced size, or maze levels.

(No - I don't need another Option for that... Takkaria's never going to get over my rants, otherwise...)
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Old May 4, 2011, 21:23   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
There ought to be general rules about what a level is. E.g. a minimum number of staircases. If you believe, as I do, that the player should be allowed to plan on escapes, a minimum diameter [empty space to empty space] of twice the range of one of teleport self or teleport other or portal. I am not sure even the old levels are large enough! The problem with teleport self swapping you back and forth between two small areas would be lessened with larger levels.
If this is true then I agree that these new level types I have created are a disaster. I'm not convinced that these are invariants to be maintained, but I'm open to being convinced.

I guess your argument comes down to a belief that the player should be able to reliably teleport between more than a few sufficiently distant locations? Are there other considerations? When you say minimum number of down staircases, do you mean a minimum >1 or >0?

I am very interested in the idea of dungeon invariants and am interested in ideas about what they should be (if anything). EDIT: That said, having 100 dungeon levels with very similar feel, shape and size seems uninteresting.
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