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Old September 15, 2009, 18:14   #1
Leewei
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Treasure maps and caches

Hi all,

I'm a longtime fan of Angband and other roguelike games. Imagine my delight when I came across an active community! To those selfless individuals keeping up this site and the open source game, you have my thanks!

I'd lurked and read up recently about how Rogues are considered a bit weak. I've wracked my brains a bit about what might changes might make sense that could improve the game for this class and give the playstyle a nice, unique flavor.

I came up with two of them.

First, the idea of a hidden cache of treasure. The cache would reveal as a treasure chest and could only be detected by one of two means -- searching and maps. A percentage of floor items might instead be considered as hidden caches, warded against magical detection. Uncovering a cache should also grant an experience award determined by the dungeon level.

The second idea is a new treasure type; perhaps a type of scroll. The scroll "detects" a random cache anywhere on that dungeon level. The map should activate immediately, in a manner similar to a trap. The player could then explore the way to the newly discovered cache -- or could simply ignore it and play as normal.

The idea is to reward a player for exploring and searching a dungeon level. The Rogue class's stealth and perception capabilities would make it a good beneficiary of this change and would make for more sneak and loot play where the character was avoiding powerful monsters rather than fighting.
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Old September 15, 2009, 18:22   #2
Pete Mack
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Whoever said rogues are "a bit weak?"

I find them very strong indeed.
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Old September 15, 2009, 18:38   #3
Leewei
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I'm searching and scratching my head. I'll link to it if I come across it again.
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Old September 15, 2009, 19:39   #4
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I think "a little weak" probably means "not a ranger"
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Old September 15, 2009, 21:45   #5
tummychow
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I love rogues, are you kidding?!
Rogues are awesome. They lack the initial fighting skill of warriors, or firing skill of rangers, or the magic of mages, but they have a little of all three, which makes for a WAY more fun game. You can snipe your opponents, or duke it out with them, or... oh right, rogues have nearly no offense magic.
Besides, all these weaknesses are balanced out by the critical POINT of a rogue, which is stealth. My rogue's stealth was legendary at level 30. How are you going to match that stealth with a warrior (most of the time, you probably will wake the monster up as you sneak up on them)?
Besides, generally there is only one reason not to explore a level - you're too weak to handle the monsters on them. I've h2hd every single unique I've ever fought as a rogue (although I'm a bit on the conservative side). The closest I ever got to dying was when a small army of air hounds blasted me in a room without poison resist. I still survived.
Unlike other classes, rogues survive by dodging trouble rather than by beating it down. Play that way, and you'll find there is no real issue with a rogue.
It's kind of like starcraft. Every class is different, but they are all inherently equal.
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Old September 15, 2009, 22:02   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tummychow View Post
It's kind of like starcraft. Every class is different, but they are all inherently equal.
I agree with the general gist of your argument, but I disagree with the idea that all the classes are inherently equal. Some of the classes are too strong (rangers) or too weak (probably mages); it remains to be seen if any balancing will happen.

A better way to put it might be that every class is winnable, and each class has its own interesting wrinkles and strategy.
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Old September 15, 2009, 22:43   #7
Antoine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leewei View Post
Hi all,

First, the idea of a hidden cache of treasure. The cache would reveal as a treasure chest and could only be detected by one of two means -- searching and maps.
A better way to get the same effect would be to add a Rogue-only spell (could also be found as a dungeon-only scroll or perhaps an artifact activation) which revealed the location of the highest-value object on the level.

A.
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Old September 15, 2009, 22:53   #8
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I'd say weakest to strongest:

Mage - squishy and needs ranged to be really effective it seems
Warrior - Lacks spells, otherwise would be the strongest or nearly so due to high damage
Rogue - Stealth and high damage and detections
Priest - Hard to die to non-instadeath situations, greatest escapes
Paladin - Like a warrior with some detection and healing
Ranger - Look at me do over 1500 single target damage per turn at range while having a set of escape and detection spells!
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Old September 15, 2009, 23:04   #9
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Having done my homework on Rogues, I have to say I was pretty off-base regarding class desirability. There's obviously a lot of love for these guys. My inadvertant egg-throwing aside ...

What is the opinion regarding an enhancement such as treasure caches? Obviously I'm not being quite objective here. I like the idea of increasing the span of dungeon that a player would want to navigate. I also like the idea of making bonus items for searching more desirable.

Treasure maps grew out of another idea I had which was the notion of finding scraps of notes left by other adventurers. These could process Magic Mapping, Detect Doors & Stairs, Find Traps, Identify a random item (maybe even one not in inventory), or even snippets of game hints.
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Old September 16, 2009, 01:40   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leewei View Post
Having done my homework on Rogues, I have to say I was pretty off-base regarding class desirability. There's obviously a lot of love for these guys. My inadvertant egg-throwing aside ...

What is the opinion regarding an enhancement such as treasure caches? Obviously I'm not being quite objective here. I like the idea of increasing the span of dungeon that a player would want to navigate. I also like the idea of making bonus items for searching more desirable.

Treasure maps grew out of another idea I had which was the notion of finding scraps of notes left by other adventurers. These could process Magic Mapping, Detect Doors & Stairs, Find Traps, Identify a random item (maybe even one not in inventory), or even snippets of game hints.
It's not a bad idea, but it's been somewhat done considering there are scrolls of treasure detection, and vaults which may be somewhat difficult to access. Maybe there could be a similar idea, chests that have unpickable locks, but can be opened by a key, said key would be generated on the level as soon as the chest is. Not able to be picked up, and immune to fire/acid and such (or at least so at higher levels of chests), and these chests would hold only consumables and ammo, since those can be quite difficult to find deeper down, and maybe jewelry?

Edit:

Leaving a level with a key, you would get this kind of a message: "The <key type> key slips off your belt and falls into a crack, lost forever."
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