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Old February 12, 2013, 07:00   #1
bron
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Sil: Naugrim are too hard

I realize the Naugrim are supposed to be a challenge class, but after considerable play time, I have come to believe that they are harder than they should be. For example, a look at winners posted on the ladder just now shows that the number of Naugrim winners is only one more than the number of Edain winners. And while I'm not seriously claiming that Naugrim are as hard as Edain, I am claiming that their difficulty is a lot closer to Edain than to Sindar. I believe that the reason is that the minuses they suffer are to the two most important/favored aspects of the game (Dexterity and Archery), and so the penalties hurt a lot more than it might seem.

My personal recommendation is to add an extra affinity. All houses of Naugrim really deserve to have both Smithing affinity (as they do now) and also Will affinity (which Belegost does, but not Nogrod). Refering to the original source material:
Quote:
The only power over them that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold [...]. But they were made from their beginning of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows enslaved to another will [...]
The Return of the King, appendix A, section III, "Durin's Folk"
So personally I think Nogrod should get Will affinity in addition to the others it already has, while Belegost, which already has Will affinity, should add melee affinity. This would not be a huge change, but would (I think) be enough to put a bit more distance between the Edain and the Naugrim, which I think would be a good thing.
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Old February 12, 2013, 16:06   #2
clouded
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Your proposed buffs are fairly minor so I'm not going to contest those, but I do disagree they aren't as strong as the Sindar. They are just on the opposite end of the playstyle spectrum. You need to cover your early weakness with smithing, and you can essentially do that for free. If you make two +1 rings of accuracy along with a nicely weighted battleaxe, you are using it without an accuracy penalty and it pretty much destroys everything for a while. Later I personally value Con more than the other stats so I don't think they are too weak then either.

But shrug, Sindar/Naugrim are my favourite races, not too strong and well differentiated from each other. To me, the problem is that the Noldor are just so much better at them at everything!
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Old February 12, 2013, 16:09   #3
debo
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I personally find melee-focused Naugrim to be not that much harder that melee-focused Noldor. If you really focus on getting their melee up, their CON/STR bonuses + smithing are amaaaaazing!

Edit: Also, the axe proficiency + the profusion of battle axes + throwing axes in the very early game help them a lot. Battle axes are mega damaging two-handed and still quite good one-handed.

I have to admit that I pretty much never use the house that starts with the -1 dex to start (whichever one doesn't have smithing mastery). 0 dex is hard enough for me lol
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Old March 11, 2013, 18:39   #4
manchu
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Debo, what is your stat assignment at the start then? I can't seem to get a Naugrim much below 400'. Spiders seem to be my nemisis. I really want to get an axe wielding smith going but find the loss of melee and evasion points to smithing is rarely worth it. It seems to gimp my characters to the point that the improved items don't make up for it.
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Old March 11, 2013, 20:15   #5
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I still have not found that fine balance between essential skills and abilities and how to spread experience around efficiently in different builds with out somehow gimping my character. I notice it more with Naugrim.
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Old March 11, 2013, 20:38   #6
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I go Nogrod, either (3, 2, 5, 2) or (3, 2, 4, 3).

Then 6 points in smithing, I take Armorsmith + Artistry, and then split the rest of my XP between Melee and Evasion (something like 4 and 5, or 5 and 4).

The low Dex is really the noticeable part at the beginning, but once you get your first forge and make some evasion-boosting armor, it's great.

I wish I could start with Belegost, but the -1 starting Dex is just too much of a pain in the ass for me.

Edit: Here's my best one http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=13762 -- not that I'm particularly good at this.
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Old March 11, 2013, 22:07   #7
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yeah okay. That sounds about right. I checked out your char, pretty sweet. On the whole 'Sprinting Naugrim' thing, I keep hearing that line by Gimil in LOTR...'dwarves are natural sprinters you know, very dangerous over short distances'. Although I think he is talking more about charging in and smashing the crap out of things...not like Sil where sprinting is used for escape...
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