Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old March 18, 2022, 15:01   #11
Selkie
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: London
Posts: 426
Selkie is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom View Post
I love the idea of making *acquirement* always available in the black market. Perhaps this should be considered for vanilla?
I've got to second this motion. Gold becomes irrelevant very quickly and having the *aquirement* casino as an option becomes attractive. The price of the scroll might need some adjustment to stop it from becoming too spammy. Could it be a birth option in the next patch just for a taster?
Selkie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 18, 2022, 22:36   #12
wv_wxman
Scout
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 26
wv_wxman is on a distinguished road
Another possibility is allowing for a small chance for an artifact to be generated in the Black Market at 1) very high, borderline insane prices and 2) only after some threshold was reached, like CL40 and/or DL60.
wv_wxman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 25, 2022, 20:32   #13
Egavactip
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 423
Egavactip is on a distinguished road
With the new versions of Angband, for good or for ill, you can typically get all the gear you need to win the game in the DL60s, if not sooner.

The easiest way to allow the players to shorten the game then, perhaps would be simply to add an at start option allowing them to choose the number of dungeon levels in the game, perhaps allowing them to pick a number between 70 and 100.
Egavactip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 28, 2022, 02:44   #14
ewert
Knight
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 654
ewert is on a distinguished road
I am currently using 5 levels of stairs per climb. So it is only 20 levels...
ewert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 28, 2022, 17:14   #15
fph
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pisa / DL0
Posts: 1,006
fph is on a distinguished road
I'll bite and be the one to ask it. Does anyone actually like Angband being 100-level long, or at this point it's only a "it's always been like that" and no one would mind if it got, say, 20 levels shorter, if not more?
__________________
Dive fast, die young, leave a high-CHA corpse.
--
You read a scroll labeled 'lol gtfo' of Teleport Level.
fph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 29, 2022, 03:21   #16
mrfy
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 300
mrfy is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by fph View Post
I'll bite and be the one to ask it. Does anyone actually like Angband being 100-level long, or at this point it's only a "it's always been like that" and no one would mind if it got, say, 20 levels shorter, if not more?
I like it the way it is. I'd also be ok with more levels. Not less.
mrfy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 29, 2022, 11:04   #17
Raerick
Scout
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 48
Raerick is on a distinguished road
On game length
I like the full 100 floors. I do not agree that shortening the game would make it more exciting. If you die because you got careless and bored then that is on you. There is nothing stopping you from diving as quickly as you want (though I wish that there was.) You can find deep descent as early as DL 1 after all. Other roguelikes may be shorter on overall levels, but nearly all the ones I know of do not let you skip large chunks of them with a stack of scrolls you can find on the first floor. For me there isn't a part of the dungeon I find boring overall. Early game is fun setting a foundation for my character, ID'ing runes, ID'ing potions/scrolls/staves/wands/rods, and acquiring useful gear. Mid game is fun growing my character, upgrading gear, finishing up the ID'ing, and cleaning out uniques. Late game is fun finishing out my kit for Morgoth, topping off the necessary consumables for the fight, and finishing off most of the uniques. That is one the the things I think I do different from others. I try to kill all the uniques except without scumming to find them. Yes even the really annoying or dangerous ones (unless I am down on my luck) such as the Terrasque. I don't even consider it a win if I beat Morgoth after running from the uniques. Sometimes I don't even play it "safe" with those uniques like is common practice (except the more annoying summoners, cause that gets out of hand.) Nothing is as exhilerating as fighting two decently powerful uniques at the same time, or fighting somwhat powerful uniques that are supported by decently powerful monsters. Sure death looms over my character, but each move means that much more an becomes that much more entertaining.

Cutting down the size of the game is like giving up on what makes the game fun for me. It is also barring a few exceptions I rarely dive quickly. I don't scum levels either. I don't flee from a level unless I have already started to get my ass kicked or after thinking for a few minutes realize that I will be able to do nothing but get my ass kicked. I explore as much of every level as I can as well. I want to experience as much of the journey as possible, otherwise rolling up my character at all would feel pointless and mechanical. I savor all of the emotions from the character's journey.

For those who don't agree you have solutions already. Deep descent is on such example, and even stairs are fairly common place. The question I would ask though is this; Sure, you can skip a lot, and you can play good and safe to maximize your chances to defeat Morgoth for the umpteenth time, but is that really enjoyable? Is having the path to victory over Morgoth be as short and safe as possible really fun? Was the game less fun when you didn't know what the hell you were doing most of the time and finally managed to win in the end? I would disagree, but that is just me. I can't turn back time to when everything was a new experience and I didn't have my optimal strategies worked out, but cutting out most of the game won't do that either. It won't make it more fun for me to experience less just because I had already experienced everything that was necessary to win dozens of times already. Going through more of the game and playing riskier may reduce my win ratio, but it brings me a step closer to when everything was novel, and it gives that victory more meaning.

Lowering the floor count to me is like cheating. Not in the sense of breaking the rules, but in the sense of cheating yourself. You can already make the game as short or as long as you want via mechanics that already exist. Making it shorter officially by removing floors is just avoiding that responsibility on your end. Hence cheating yourself.

On the economy
I do happen to agree that shops need more interesting or useful things to buy late game. While I think there are arguably things that can be added to further improve an already great game, the one thing that I think is an actual definite flaw that has yet to be addressed is the broken economy. From my experience the economy breaks completely roughly around DL40. Sometimes it is sooner or later depending on how quickly one dives or how much one revisits floors. Now there are still useful or necessary things to buy, but they do not consume enough money by that point to make much of a dent compared to the money accumulated.

The game functions just fine even with a broken economy. It is mostly just an annoyance for people like me who have a difficult time separating money from the notion of being a useful and/or necessary resource. In situations where money just accumulates without end and without purpose I get slightly depressed just seeing it.

Adding things to buy that are more expensive would help. Reducing the overall amount of AU given from piles of treasure would help. Having more ways to lose treasure would help as well.
Raerick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 29, 2022, 21:39   #18
smbhax
Adept
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: WA
Posts: 237
smbhax is on a distinguished road
Just have Morgoth spawn in town on April 1st. ; P
__________________
My roguelike gameplay videos
smbhax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 29, 2022, 22:25   #19
Pete Mack
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,692
Donated: $40
Pete Mack is on a distinguished road
I think you are making a category error on game economy. The economy is determined entirely by scarcity of critical consumables: money is useful primarily in that you can afford them on those rare instances they show up in the black market. Yes, you can rarely find nice gear there. But those are luxury goods and rarely serve as game changerd. A stack of 8 Tele level, or an early wand of TO? Those are game changers. The economics come in using them well.
Pete Mack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 30, 2022, 02:37   #20
Raerick
Scout
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 48
Raerick is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Mack View Post
I think you are making a category error on game economy. The economy is determined entirely by scarcity of critical consumables: money is useful primarily in that you can afford them on those rare instances they show up in the black market. Yes, you can rarely find nice gear there. But those are luxury goods and rarely serve as game changerd. A stack of 8 Tele level, or an early wand of TO? Those are game changers. The economics come in using them well.
Even if that argument is taken for granted there is no reason for AU piles to be so inflated. There are indeed useful things to buy throughout the game, but past a shallow depth they pretty much have no impact on the wealth of the player. They might as well just be free by that point. The main problem is the over abundance of AU, but there are still some things that could be added to the black market rotation. For example scrolls of Rune of Protection. Without scumming I might find a 4 or 5 throughout a game, hardly worth devoting a slot to, but what if the black market occasionally sold one or two at a high cost? I don't believe that would upset the balance of the game terribly, but it would increase both the usefulness of devoting a slot to that item and the usefulness of money.

Making too many late game resources available for purchase wouldn't be preferable from my viewpoint. If that is your worry, then I agree. Their rarity is what gives them value. Having a windfall by finding them in the dungeon is part of the fun. I just don't agree that having piles of useless money past the first half of the dungeon is something that should be acceptable. At the very least the amount of money that can be gained needs to be lowered to give the appearance that gold has value. Even on an ironman game where I actively ignore piles of treasure I end up with enough gold to swim in it like Scrooge McDuck.
Raerick is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Just checking - starting a new game won't affect a saved game with another char? Petoften Vanilla 1 July 11, 2018 09:15
Tweaking Character Creation Process Ingwe Ingweron Vanilla 24 March 1, 2017 20:12
Tweaking the game ripforareason Sil 6 February 9, 2017 08:02
Monster list tweaking fizzix v4 67 December 12, 2011 23:34
Tweaking identification Derakon Development 7 December 22, 2009 19:48


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:02.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.