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Old December 23, 2019, 18:34   #1
Sky
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RoS vs RoD: math edition

Code:
 Name   Maethedir    Age            127          Self  RB  CB  EB   Best
 Race   High-Elf     Height        6'5"   STR! 18/100  +1  +3  +6 18/200
 Class  Warrior      Weight    12st 1lb   INT! 18/100  +3  -2 +20 18/***
 Title  Lord         Turns used:          WIS! 18/100  -1  -2 +15 18/***
 HP     1108/1108    Game        655019   DEX! 18/100  +3  +2  +7 18/***
 SP     0/0          Standard    111701   CON! 18/100  +1  +2 +10 18/***
                     Resting      22791

 Level                 47    Armor     [28,+131]    Saving Throw    100%
 Cur Exp          6608248                           Stealth       Superb
 Max Exp          6608248    Melee       5d6,+49    Disarm - phys.  100%
 Adv Exp          7000000    To-hit       97,+61    Disarm - magic   73%
                             Blows      5.2/turn    Magic Devices     83
 Gold              944332                           Searching        76%
 Burden          174.4 lb    Shoot to-dam    +13    Infravision    40 ft
 Overweight       -5.5 lb    To-hit       97,+52    Speed      44 (4.3x)
 Max Depth    4450' (L89)    Shots        1/turn

a) the Two-Handed Great Flail 'Lemed' (5d6) (+19,+18) <+2, +3, +4>
     Dropped by Lungorthin, the Balrog of White Fire at 4150 feet
     (level 83)
     
     +2 intelligence.
     +3 wisdom.
     +4 dexterity.
     +2 constitution.
     +3 tunneling.
     Slays undead (powerfully), dragons (powerfully), demons
     (powerfully), giants, trolls, orcs, animals, evil creatures.
     Branded with acid.
     Provides immunity to lightning.
     Provides resistance to acid, fire, cold, poison, shards.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.
     Grants telepathy.  Grants the ability to see invisible things. 
     Prevents paralysis.  
     
     When activated, it heals 500 hit points.
     Takes 477 to 585 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 95.0%
     
     Combat info:
     5.2 blows/round.
     With +1 STR and +0 DEX you would get 5.5 blows
     Average damage/round: 606.4 vs. creatures not resistant to acid,
     825.2 vs. undead, 825.2 vs. dragons, 825.2 vs. demons, 606.4 vs.
     giants, 606.4 vs. trolls, 606.4 vs. orcs, 496.5 vs. animals, 496.5
     vs. evil creatures, and 387.1 vs. others.
Code:
 Name   Maethedir    Age            127          Self  RB  CB  EB   Best
 Race   High-Elf     Height        6'5"   STR! 18/100  +1  +3  +6 18/200
 Class  Warrior      Weight    12st 1lb   INT! 18/100  +3  -2 +20 18/***
 Title  Lord         Turns used:          WIS! 18/100  -1  -2 +15 18/***
 HP     1108/1108    Game        655022   DEX! 18/100  +3  +2  +7 18/***
 SP     0/0          Standard    111702   CON! 18/100  +1  +2 +10 18/***
                     Resting      22791

 Level                 47    Armor     [28,+131]    Saving Throw    100%
 Cur Exp          6608248                           Stealth       Superb
 Max Exp          6608248    Melee       5d6,+63    Disarm - phys.  100%
 Adv Exp          7000000    To-hit       97,+61    Disarm - magic   73%
                             Blows      5.2/turn    Magic Devices     83
 Gold              944332                           Searching        76%
 Burden          174.4 lb    Shoot to-dam    +13    Infravision    40 ft
 Overweight       -5.5 lb    To-hit       97,+52    Speed      27 (3.6x)
 Max Depth    4450' (L89)    Shots        1/turn

 

a) the Two-Handed Great Flail 'Lemed' (5d6) (+19,+18) <+2, +3, +4>
     Dropped by Lungorthin, the Balrog of White Fire at 4150 feet
     (level 83)
     
     +2 intelligence.
     +3 wisdom.
     +4 dexterity.
     +2 constitution.
     +3 tunneling.
     Slays undead (powerfully), dragons (powerfully), demons
     (powerfully), giants, trolls, orcs, animals, evil creatures.
     Branded with acid.
     Provides immunity to lightning.
     Provides resistance to acid, fire, cold, poison, shards.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, fire.
     Grants telepathy.  Grants the ability to see invisible things. 
     Prevents paralysis.  
     
     When activated, it heals 500 hit points.
     Takes 434 to 533 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 95.0%
     
     Combat info:
     5.2 blows/round.
     With +1 STR and +0 DEX you would get 5.5 blows
     Average damage/round: 680.1 vs. creatures not resistant to acid,
     898.9 vs. undead, 898.9 vs. dragons, 898.9 vs. demons, 680.1 vs.
     giants, 680.1 vs. trolls, 680.1 vs. orcs, 570.1 vs. animals, 570.1
     vs. evil creatures, and 460.7 vs. others.
the one on the top has 2x RoS +17
the one on the bottom has 1x RoS +17 and 1x RoD +14

one has a multiplier of 3.6, the other has 4.3

double ring of speed DPS x multiplier: 2141
RoS + RoD DPS x multiplier: 2052


granted that +17 speed is unusual, most runs you'll get +12 at most, and finding TWO +17 speed rings is even rarer (it used to be more common..), but when you have this much speed boost the final damage output is actually higher with RoS rather than RoD.
(character is already hasted)
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Old December 23, 2019, 23:26   #2
Pete Mack
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Damage, all the way. Permanent speed above 30 has *seriously* diminishing returns. Permanent speed 27 is pretty much ideal.
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Old December 24, 2019, 01:39   #3
Derakon
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I'm having trouble finding fault with Sky's math here; this does seem to be a case where the RoS is worth more than the RoD. In this case, Sky's character is trading being 19.4% faster (4.3x normal speed vs. 3.6x) vs. getting 19.0% more damage per attack action (460.7 damage per attack vs. 387.1). So they're not even sacrificing any damage, really. It certainly helps that the faster character's speed bonus is right at the front of the area of diminishing returns and that they have a significant speed bonus to throw around, of course. But it does put the lie to the statement that you're always better focusing on damage instead of speed once you get to +30.

Diminishing returns doesn't mean zero returns; it takes a long time before speed is completely worthless, and even if it came in at a slight damage disadvantage (which it doesn't in this case) the tactical value of getting turns more frequently is not to be ignored. For example, it reduces the odds that having two enemies in LOS will result in them both using their biggest attack before you get a chance to react.
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Old December 24, 2019, 01:52   #4
Pete Mack
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Derakon--that is true unhasted. But once he uses !speed, the difference will genuinely be marginal.
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Old December 24, 2019, 02:53   #5
Nick
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On the other hand, he doesn't have to use !speed.
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Old December 24, 2019, 16:04   #6
archolewa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
On the other hand, he doesn't have to use !speed.
This is I think big, because it eliminates a potential source of human error: forgetting to keep your speed above 30 against Morgoth. Its all too easy in that fight to miss the fact that your speed ran out and then get double moved by Morgoth. And seeing as how by the endgame, the players biggest threat is usually their own stupidity...
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Old December 24, 2019, 19:25   #7
DavidMedley
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All the figures already include !speed
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Old December 24, 2019, 22:11   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMedley View Post
All the figures already include !speed
Right, so Pete and I are both wrong
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Old January 5, 2020, 18:29   #9
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Umm... nice weapon?
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Old January 10, 2020, 04:48   #10
eastwind
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I'm confused by the "x multiplier" part.

If the weapon inspect says (different example for easy math):
5.0 blows/round.
Average damage/round: 300 vs others.

Isn't that 300/round not 1500/round? If it was 300 per blow wouldn't it say per blow instead of per round?
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