Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old May 13, 2020, 19:03   #11
wobbly
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 2,314
wobbly is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Estie View Post
The outstanding feature of the vanilla combat system is that you want a dagger early and a MoD for lategame. Unlike DnD/nethack, its complex enough to accommodate such a shift.

What exactly makes it terrible in your opinion, and what would a system have to look like for you to like it ?
So at the start the dagger is good & everything else you find is weak & often by a fair bit, at least for a warrior. There are exceptions of course if you find an artifact, but mostly weapons that in theory should be reasonable, tend to be terrible. Then there's the issue that every weapon plays & feels the same. They are just damage numbers on a stat stick. I don't find it leads to interesting choices.

For examples of better combat systems, look at Sil or O-combat or DCSS. All of these have a tighter balance, more feel to the various weapons & more often an interesting choice.

Now when I say it's terrible, in some way its ok, it works, you can play the game, it's fun. However for me its fun despite the combat system, rather then because of it.
wobbly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 13, 2020, 22:16   #12
sffp
Apprentice
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: DC Area
Posts: 68
sffp is on a distinguished road
Yeah

I was thinking something about the combat system and it weighs heavily towards lightweights.

Not only do you get ridiculous damage from 2+ to 3 to 4 attacks per round.

Oftentimes, you only need one or two of those hits to kill - while with a heavier weapon, you only get one shot so it skews the to-hit and the to-damage.

My (+7, +6) dagger right now averages 60 points a round. No need to bother with heavier ego items - this outshines them all (Until I completely buff up my stats- but that happens later)
sffp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 13, 2020, 22:54   #13
sffp
Apprentice
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: DC Area
Posts: 68
sffp is on a distinguished road
and a slightly unrelated q

I used to remember when I had fractional attacks around - say 2.6. I would get 2 rounds with 3 attacks and 1 round with 2 - is that not the case any more? Was that ever the case?
sffp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 13, 2020, 23:18   #14
Nick
Vanilla maintainer
 
Nick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canberra, Australia
Age: 54
Posts: 8,332
Donated: $60
Nick will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by sffp View Post
I used to remember when I had fractional attacks around - say 2.6. I would get 2 rounds with 3 attacks and 1 round with 2 - is that not the case any more? Was that ever the case?
That is still the case - your current character has 3.8, which should be usually four, but occasionally three.
__________________
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
Nick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14, 2020, 01:38   #15
sffp
Apprentice
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: DC Area
Posts: 68
sffp is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
That is still the case - your current character has 3.8, which should be usually four, but occasionally three.
Is it possible for that functionality to break - if for example you go up to 4 and then down to below 4?(potion of Brawn swiped from Dex) Because my character is doing 3 a round regularly even with the 3.8
sffp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14, 2020, 02:45   #16
sffp
Apprentice
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: DC Area
Posts: 68
sffp is on a distinguished road
I picked up an example of what I was thinking about.
I just picked up a Lance of *Slay Troll* (+4,+3) <+2> to strength
I have an 18/86 strength, 18/20 Dex wielding it
I get 1.3 blows a round for ~57 damage against trolls

My Dagger (+6,+6) gives me ~66 against everything (including said trolls I presume)

That just seems silly
sffp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14, 2020, 03:16   #17
Nick
Vanilla maintainer
 
Nick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canberra, Australia
Age: 54
Posts: 8,332
Donated: $60
Nick will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by sffp View Post
Is it possible for that functionality to break - if for example you go up to 4 and then down to below 4?(potion of Brawn swiped from Dex) Because my character is doing 3 a round regularly even with the 3.8
Sorry, I was incorrect. The thing that happens with your 3.8 blows is that you get 3, but instead of using 100 energy that turn, you use (100 / 3.8) * 3, so your next turn comes around a bit quicker. This corresponds to the way extra shots works for missile weapons.
__________________
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
Nick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14, 2020, 14:21   #18
sffp
Apprentice
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: DC Area
Posts: 68
sffp is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
Sorry, I was incorrect. The thing that happens with your 3.8 blows is that you get 3, but instead of using 100 energy that turn, you use (100 / 3.8) * 3, so your next turn comes around a bit quicker. This corresponds to the way extra shots works for missile weapons.
Ah so that's really interesting. I've never understood that mechanism (I've always wondered "where are my extra shots" when I've had one of those bows.
So does that result in double-turns for me? Or - how does that interoperate with the speed system.
sffp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14, 2020, 16:27   #19
archolewa
Adept
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Midwest
Age: 32
Posts: 103
archolewa is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
So at the start the dagger is good & everything else you find is weak & often by a fair bit, at least for a warrior. There are exceptions of course if you find an artifact, but mostly weapons that in theory should be reasonable, tend to be terrible. Then there's the issue that every weapon plays & feels the same. They are just damage numbers on a stat stick. I don't find it leads to interesting choices.
I see where you're coming from on this, but personally I don't think the interesting choice has to boil down to what "type" of weapon, but rather "what impact does this weapon have on the rest of my character?" Is an extra blow worth losing chaos resistance? Is chaos resistance worth being slightly encumbered, or having to leave some of my staves at home to stay unencumbered? On the other hand, the heavier weapon also gives me an extra pip of Nether resistance, so now I can swap out Hjolmir finally for the Armor of the Rohirrim...

This is in my opinion where Angband's equipment game gets interesting. I don't care what kind of weapon it is, I care about my resistances, damage, and other intrinsics.

Besides, I've played some DCSS (got two runes before getting bored), and I rarely found the weapon choice to make that much of a difference beyond forcing me to change what I was training. Sure, axes let you hit every enemy... but you're gonna lure them to a corridor one at a time anyway because it's very easy to get overwhelmed and that game doesn't have particularly good panic buttons. Riposte is nice for some extra damage, but again you're still gonna lure them into a corridor. Maces just hit hard. Spears are interesting, because there are a few spells and what-not in DCSS you can use to maximize a spear's reach. But in that case, it's lure into a corridor, and throw down flame cloud, or try to manipulate the game into to putting an orc between you and the troll, so you can skewer the troll while the orc wails ineffectually at you.

So the only impact I really found DCSS' weapons had was on what skills I trained and spells I learned. *How* I fought, or what I fought never really changed. We have the same thing already in Angband: choosing between two different weapons can have very interesting ripple effects across the rest of your character's build out, even if it doesn't impact how you fight once the fight starts. It does impact which enemies are worth fighting though, so I find the game plays differently even if the combat doesn't.

I'm not opposed to weapons having different mechanics (I *do* really enjoy the extra reach granted by spears in DCSS). I'm just skeptical it will actually really change anything, either in combat tactics or weapon choice. Maybe if the weapon effects were absolutely massive (the Spear of Orome lets you turn your melee attack into a beam!), or you had a way of trying to transfer stats between weapons (but ye gods this would have to either be nerfed into uselessness or be broken beyond all compare). Otherwise, I expect the stats on the sticks to remain the dominate consideration, and the extra weapon qualities will just be gravy.
archolewa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14, 2020, 22:42   #20
sffp
Apprentice
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: DC Area
Posts: 68
sffp is on a distinguished road
I understand that the weapon type doesn't matter to the game play.
But theirs a value system in stores for things like Slay troll/orc/dragon etc
Levels get feelings based off the presence of the ego weapons. But when a Dagger (+2,+6) does more damage than a Great Maul of *Slay Dragon* (+11, +14) against dragons - that's where you start to question the system. (Note - in college, when I played Angband, I don't recall inspecting weapons to show damage. )

I know which one will be more expensive at the store....
sffp is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fix weapon weights? wobbly Vanilla 39 May 7, 2019 14:30
Question about weapon weights in Angband Dragget Vanilla 1 April 15, 2014 13:35
Weights of similar specification items darkdrone Sil 5 March 3, 2014 07:24
Livestream/video rights djent Vanilla 3 December 15, 2013 21:59
Video Card OLSEN Idle chatter 3 October 23, 2007 01:15


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:56.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.