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January 29, 2023, 20:29   #151
Nick
Vanilla maintainer

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Quote:
 Originally Posted by gglibertine So I've been playing a half-troll warrior recently to keep myself distracted, and thinking about the issue with light weapons giving more blows and thus being more damaging than heavy weapons. This is probably a dumb question, but would it be possible to change the way damage and blows are calculated such that DEX contributes more to light weapons, and STR contributes more to heavy ones? Or does it already work that way and I'm just clueless? (I haven't looked at the code because I probably wouldn't understand it; I don't math good and my rudimentary coding skills are decades out of date.)
If it helps (and it may not), blows are basically just decided from a big table:
Code:
```	/* 0  */
{  100, 100, 95,  85,  75,  60,  50,  42,  35,  30,  25,  23 },

/* 1  */
{  100, 95,  85,  75,  60,  50,  42,  35,  30,  25,  23,  21 },

/* 2  */
{  95,  85,  75,  60,  50,  42,  35,  30,  26,  23,  21,  20 },

/* 3  */
{  85,  75,  60,  50,  42,  36,  32,  28,  25,  22,  20,  19 },

/* 4  */
{  75,  60,  50,  42,  36,  33,  28,  25,  23,  21,  19,  18 },

/* 5  */
{  60,  50,  42,  36,  33,  30,  27,  24,  22,  21,  19,  17 },

/* 6  */
{  50,  42,  36,  33,  30,  27,  25,  23,  21,  20,  18,  17 },

/* 7  */
{  42,  36,  33,  30,  28,  26,  24,  22,  20,  19,  18,  17 },

/* 8  */
{  36,  33,  30,  28,  26,  24,  22,  21,  20,  19,  17,  16 },

/* 9  */
{  35,  32,  29,  26,  24,  22,  21,  20,  19,  18,  17,  16 },

/* 10 */
{  34,  30,  27,  25,  23,  22,  21,  20,  19,  18,  17,  16 },

/* 11+ */
{  33,  29,  26,  24,  22,  21,  20,  19,  18,  17,  16,  15 },```
DEX increases going across the table and strength increases going down, and the values in the table are the amount of energy the player uses per blow. So top left is low STR, low DEX and a blow is 100 energy (a whole turn). Bottom right is high STR, high DEX and a blow is 15 energy, so you get 100/15 = about 6 blows. And, for another example, the bottom right is high STR and low DEX, and that would give you 100/33 = 3 blows.
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January 30, 2023, 14:39   #152
gglibertine

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Portsmouth, UK
Age: 56
Posts: 224
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Estie Long ago I made a proposal to let #blows be determined by dex alone and have str put a cap on that number dependent on weapon weight. You could adjust the numbers such that the damage output would be similar to the status quo; the difference would be that the level 1 half troll would achieve his best result with something like a longsword (~2 blows) as opposed to a dagger (same ~2 blows) or a lance (~1 blow). As the dex goes up, so does the #blows, as the str goes up, so does the weight allowance so eventually he gets the same #blows with the lance. At the same time the level 1 halfling warrior would get ~3 blows with the dagger and only ~1 with anything heavier, while other classes use the same cap for str but get a lower base #blows from their dex stat (eventually capping out at the current max values of 6, 5 or 4).
I like the sound of that! I think it makes a lot of sense.

 February 6, 2023, 18:37 #153 mrfy Swordsman   Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 306 Latest nightly 4.2.4-234-g18ed034cd. Trying to use the mage spell Dimension Door, instead of allowing me to pick a square to phase to, it offers "Direction ('*' or to target, "'" for closest, Escape to cancel)?" This seems to be the prompt to select a target monster, not a target square.
February 7, 2023, 08:33   #154
PowerDiver
Prophet

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,730
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Estie Long ago I made a proposal to let #blows be determined by dex alone and have str put a cap on that number dependent on weapon weight..
I proposed something equivalent even longer ago, worded differently but the same effect. This was one of many things I implemented in 3.a.0 that was only ever used in one competetition. FWIW the formulae involved the square root of some linear function of the weapon weight. I did a lot playtesting to get the values right for my intuition. If the dev team wants to test this, that old code might be a good place to start.

This idea got no traction when I tried to push it. Perhaps you will have better luck.

 February 8, 2023, 01:51 #155 Nick Vanilla maintainer     Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Canberra, Australia Age: 57 Posts: 9,465 Donated: \$60 Combat System Some of you may remember that when I started out as maintainer I gave an outline of my plans for 4.1-4.3. The eagle-eyed will also notice that combat system was one of the things slated for examination in 4.3. A couple of things I should say:I'm kind of occupied on other things at the moment and I don't have really strong opinions about how the combat system should work. I think the current system works pretty well; there's the birth option for percentage damage (essentially O-combat); and there are other options like what was proposed for v4. So I'm not going to be pushing a particular idea, but I would very much welcome a discussion about this, with the view that it could potentially lead to a revised combat system (and by implication a version 4.3). __________________ One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
February 8, 2023, 02:29   #156
Bill Peterson

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Flyover country
Posts: 182
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Nick So I'm not going to be pushing a particular idea, but I would very much welcome a discussion about this, with the view that it could potentially lead to a revised combat system (and by implication a version 4.3).
Any thoughts about making Vanilla combat more Sil-like? That would leverage some of the new knowledge you're picking up. Or are the systems incompatible.

February 8, 2023, 03:37   #157
Nick
Vanilla maintainer

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Age: 57
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Bill Peterson Any thoughts about making Vanilla combat more Sil-like? That would leverage some of the new knowledge you're picking up. Or are the systems incompatible.
It would be a very big change. Sil combat is very finely balanced, and all the weapons (and to an extent armour) are carefully designed to fit a usable niche. Angband tends to have a much more relaxed (being kind here) approach to balance in objects.

That said, it's not an area I devote a lot of time to analysing.
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February 9, 2023, 19:31   #158
smbhax
Swordsman

Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: WA
Posts: 318
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Nick I think the current system works pretty well; there's the birth option for percentage damage (essentially O-combat); and there are other options like what was proposed for v4. So I'm not going to be pushing a particular idea, but I would very much welcome a discussion about this, with the view that it could potentially lead to a revised combat system (and by implication a version 4.3).
The only problem I've had with combat so far is that up through level 30 or something the most damaging weapon I could find for my Warrior was an ordinary dagger (maybe a stiletto or something), because of the speed factor. It made the wide variety of heavier weapons I kept finding obsolete, so there was essentially no worthwhile weapon variety for ages. That was weird and boring.

Would birth_percent_damage change that?
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February 9, 2023, 22:33   #159
Nick
Vanilla maintainer

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canberra, Australia
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by smbhax Would birth_percent_damage change that?
It certainly should.
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One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

February 10, 2023, 01:36   #160
smbhax
Swordsman

Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: WA
Posts: 318
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Nick It certainly should.
Aw, cool! I'll have to remember to try that next time. ^ _^
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