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Old July 8, 2011, 18:56   #21
ChodTheWacko
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you know what would be interesting - if tunneling always made a tunnel of width two. It still allows tunneling to be used for stuff like phase door and short cuts but I think it cripples ASC ability.


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Old July 8, 2011, 19:07   #22
Derakon
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For what it's worth, I generally feel that NPP monsters have way too much mana. Or their spells are way too cheap. It's been awhile since I played last, but I took a paladin all the way to Sauron and I never once saw a monster run out of mana. I've seen other people say that basically the only way to kill Sauron/Morgoth in NPP is to drain their mana (ideally by forcing them to cast healing spells all the time, as opposed to letting them blow you up over and over)...it'll be tricky to get the balance on that right. Mana effectively acts to extend the health bar on monsters with healing spells, so how much longer does that health bar need to be?

Of course once the mana is gone the monster is also much less dangerous, so that's something to consider too. Especially if you introduce some mechanism for the player to drain monster mana. You don't want the Sauron fight to turn into the player coating Sauron in antimagic slime and then going to town on his defenseless hide.
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Old July 8, 2011, 19:47   #23
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
For what it's worth, I generally feel that NPP monsters have way too much mana. Or their spells are way too cheap. It's been awhile since I played last, but I took a paladin all the way to Sauron and I never once saw a monster run out of mana. I've seen other people say that basically the only way to kill Sauron/Morgoth in NPP is to drain their mana (ideally by forcing them to cast healing spells all the time, as opposed to letting them blow you up over and over)...it'll be tricky to get the balance on that right. Mana effectively acts to extend the health bar on monsters with healing spells, so how much longer does that health bar need to be?

Of course once the mana is gone the monster is also much less dangerous, so that's something to consider too. Especially if you introduce some mechanism for the player to drain monster mana. You don't want the Sauron fight to turn into the player coating Sauron in antimagic slime and then going to town on his defenseless hide.
I was looking at the values today and I agree that it seems that most monsters have too much mana. Of course NPP has the ability to drain mana and V does not, so we should obviously adjust for that.

I think we need some more information. So the next time you fight a tough unique, pay attention to:

1) How many game turns did the battle take. (needed because of regeneration)

2) How many spells did it cast

If we had that information for several endgame uniques, we could probably make a reasonable guess for mana allotment. If we get the framework up and working, we probably will need a lot of discussion and input to get things right.
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Old July 8, 2011, 22:40   #24
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Just going to throw this out there- what if monsters could summon as is *one time*, but then they would be prevented from summoning again *as long as any of the previous summons were still around*.

This would keep the challenge of fighting summoners, but would also make the task more manageable. If you want to farm the summons for XP or drops, you can kill them all. If you want to take out the unique easily, you have to leave at least one of the summoned creatures alive.

Some questions on implementation would be
- What exactly would "still around"? Would a TO-ed monster still count as "around"? What about a slower monster that the original summoner outpaces? Basically alive on level or within sight of the original summoner?
- If a summoned monster can itself summon, whether that would need to be adjusted or not.
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Old July 9, 2011, 05:34   #25
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Just going to throw this out there- what if monsters could summon as is *one time*, but then they would be prevented from summoning again *as long as any of the previous summons were still around*.
In a way, something like this already happens. Summoned monsters that aren't brought along via FRIENDS or ESCORT(S) are constrained to appear within 2 squares of the summoner. If all those spaces are filled, no more summoned monsters can appear.
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Old July 9, 2011, 14:45   #26
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Some time ago someone suggested creating 'limbo' where spawned and/or summoned creatures are drawn from. Supposing that limbo was populated at the time of dungeon creation based upon the dungeon level (spawns) and denizens (summons). Monsters that are 'removed from the level' (destruction) can be said to have a chance to be returned to limbo, so that they may have a chance to reappear.

IMO limbo should be large, probably having a population greater that that of the dungeon level itself. Cleaning it shouldn't ever really happen, though it shouldn't be impossible either. If limbo is empty, the level can be considered truly cleared.
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Old July 24, 2011, 18:30   #27
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I just played a game with two changes. The first were more sensible alertness values and that is likely to make it into V. The second change was more controversial as it had to do with summoning.

The change is as follows. When a monster summons, it's summoning power is computed as (monster level) * (current dungeon level). Every summoned monster contributes as its (monster level)^2. Monsters that have the FRIENDS are computed as (monster level/5)^2 to account for their considerably weaker strength. When the sum of the summoned monsters is equivalent to the summon power, no more monsters can be summoned.

Summoned monsters do not come with FRIENDS and ESCORTS. Summoned monsters can now appear up to 4 squares away from the summoner.

Here are the results:
Summoning is generally weaker but not all that much so. Certain summons are a lot more interesting from a tactical standpoint. Your choice is forced when 20 time/gravity/chaos hounds are pulled in by a hound summon, but that's not true when you have 1 of them. It's now an interesting decision whether to continue fighting or not.

Not allowing FRIENDS makes summoning stronger overall. The reasoning is that you can't clog up the room with wimps from a weak summon. The monster can always pull in more. With more variety, there's more chance of getting a nasty monster or a tough unique. At the higher levels, Morgoth and Sauron had just as difficult summons as I'm used to. In fact, probably more difficult. There were no "weak" summons from Morgoth where I got a bunch of barrow wights or Hezrou. Every one of his summons brought in at least 1 tough monster. I think I burned more ?banishment and ?mass banishment on the last battle than I'm used to. Sauron barely attempted to summon...

Removing ESCORTS makes summoning weaker in a few cases but makes it stronger overall. You often can get a bunch of free hits off of Morgoth or Sauron if they make the mistake of summoning a troll or orc unique that fills the room with its buddies and prevents Morgoth from adding more monsters. Now if they come, they're alone. This makes gothmog/lungorthin/kronos/gabriel individually less powerful when summoned. But often the summon that brings them in is more powerful because it lacks the easy counter of ?banish. It's harder to deal with Gothmog + Gabriel + Tarrasque than it is Gothmog + 30 pit fiends. Not that much harder, but it is harder.

Anyway, I was pleasantly surprised by how the changes played. And I think it's a good step towards revamping summoning.
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Old July 24, 2011, 19:28   #28
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Monsters that have the FRIENDS are computed as (monster level/5)^2 to account for their considerably weaker strength.
Did you really mean to count them at a 25th the value? That seems a little extreme -- like counting a Time Hound as a level 10 monster.
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Old July 24, 2011, 20:49   #29
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Did you really mean to count them at a 25th the value? That seems a little extreme -- like counting a Time Hound as a level 10 monster.
25 is roughly how many would come in if they were in groups, so yes. I want monsters like barrow wights, or hezrous to count as virtually nothing when summoned. Enough hounds should come to fill up all available spaces. That's what they would do previously.
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Old July 25, 2011, 10:18   #30
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25 is roughly how many would come in if they were in groups, so yes. I want monsters like barrow wights, or hezrous to count as virtually nothing when summoned. Enough hounds should come to fill up all available spaces. That's what they would do previously.
Fair enough, I suppose it has been a long time since I played Vanilla and 25 in a group seemed like a lot to me. It sounds like a good idea overall to me, but bear in mind my lack of recent Vanilla experience.
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