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Old May 5, 2011, 02:36   #41
Spacebux
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzkill View Post
This ^^^ (or a staff of speed, or a good supply of TO).

I do like the notion of mages pasting bits of parchment into a custom made spell book, but I can't help but wonder how long it would be before players learn the optimum spell selections (via spoilers, if not personal experience) and then compile books containing exactly those spells, and so all mages will be carrying (nearly) identical spell books once again.
Actually, there already is an optimum spell selection. However, one is NOT required to put forth the effort. E.g., I sometimes skip learning Detect Monsters in the early stages knowing full-well, soon enough, I will get Reveal down the road in book C, which surpasses that of Detect Monsters. (Yes, I know the latter requires more mana, but in terms of saving on Study sessions in the early game, I prefer to do it this way.)

My point, in the early stages of the game, unless you pick Half-Elf Mage with outstanding INT, normally, one does not garner enough Study sessions to learn all the spells offered in the base set of books at say level 15. Normally, one has to wait until level 20-something before the number of study sessions becomes adequate enough to fully learn all the beginning spells. So, in a sense, one is already playing the game.

When it comes to Advanced books, however, those are not found until DL40+... and a lot of the unique mobs must be surpassed because the base set of spells simply lack the firepower necessary to bring down mobs in mage fashion!! Yes, a lucky Mage might have a wand of annihilation, but most Mages won't or don't have such luck with their RNG's prior to running into Kavlax.

Advanced books usually appear below DL35... by which time, one has often accumulated enough XP to be close to character level 30, usually near mid-30s. A mid-30s mage, onwards, can generally have enough INT potions and other +INT gear on, such that picking up a new advanced book means picking up 4-5 new spells immediately... with only the highest level spells being yet unlearnable. That is just the nature of the game.

You can argue tactics all you want.


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Originally Posted by buzzkill View Post
... but I can't help but wonder how long it would be before players learn the optimum spell selections (via spoilers, if not personal experience) and then compile books containing exactly those spells, and so all mages will be carrying (nearly) identical spell books once again.

When you have a large number of spells, say 10-20 more than the current set of 63? for mages, maybe throw in a few spells like I suggested or create some other duplicate type spells - like minor recharging, major recharging, super-duper-recharging (w/ 1% blow-ability..?). Anyway - if/when the player knows what all the spells are, one will have a better idea in 3rd and 4th iterations what to expect and better know how to expend Study Sessions in the game progression. Sure, you might think, "ah.. Detect Monster's not worth it, I'll wait until I dig up 'Reveal'..." However, the likely-hood of discovering the 'Reveal' spell-scroll would depend on one's ability to dive deeper to find it w/out relying on Detect Monster in the interim. Maybe "Super-Duper-Recharge" existed, however, the chances of finding that spell scroll would be quite remote--hence... might not be worth the wait! You can still collect spell-scrolls in your book, just not learn them unless you feel its necessary. I.e., you may still possess 4 or 5 study sessions by the time you reach DL98. You may then say, well, probably not going to find "Super-Duper-Recharge", so, I may as well suck it up with Lesser Recharge... or some other spells you weren't really excited about taking earlier.

Or, maybe, the coders will be generous and state you can get the maximum number of study sessions for 18/200 INT Mages, but, still no guarantee one would find all the highest level spells without considerable effort on the player's part.

You might find Mana Storm, you might not...! But, you may get Rend Soul a lot sooner than normal, because it's not burried beneath DL80 with the rest of Kelek's.

Does that make sense??
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Old May 5, 2011, 02:43   #42
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Later on, like Random Artifacts, one would have a set of core spells for mages, and another random set of spells with variable damage rates, mana rates, effects, and such (not just the Wonder spell stuff). I don't know how the code defines random artifact abilities, but I think the same generation process could be used on spells & prayers.

E.g., the random process might generate a high-level cold-breath spell with a radius 4 blast for 220-dam at the center for 25 mana points with a fail rate of 25% at Level 40.

Or a Darkness-Bolt spell that is akin to lightning bolt but shoots out darkness through all mobs in a line.

You know you would still have your base set of spells guaranteed, but the game would generate a bunch of random (and sometimes useless) spells.
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Old May 5, 2011, 03:00   #43
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Just a random note: Kavlax is a terrible example. Everyone avoids him when he's anywhere near in-depth! Speed + gravity + nexus = no fun.

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Old May 5, 2011, 03:33   #44
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Hurray for distractions. It is interesting and counter to traditional fantasy (whatever that is) that priests have a better damage spells than mages for most of the game. I found my only mage win to be extremely tedious and painful. Oh well - c'est la vie.

On point:

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How many Priest players, for example, are moaning and begrudging the fact there are 3 spells which are nothing but repeats of the same thing: Bless, Holy Chant, Holy Prayer??
The repeating in general is a great boon as priests/paladins can get by with carrying far fewer books than mages towards the end. Paladins can get by with the detection book and a large heal book.

Mages aren't so lucky, as an irreplaceable utility spell is in each of the lower books (MB1 - phase, MB2 - teleport, MB3 - cure hunger/identify, MB4-haste). That is, MB1-3 are more or less slot neutral. I've suggested before putting haste in MB8 and tele self in the escape book (MB7?), which fit thematically, though I doubt that will happen. Geez its been a while since I've played...
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Old May 5, 2011, 06:13   #45
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Originally Posted by bulian View Post
Mages aren't so lucky, as an irreplaceable utility spell is in each of the lower books (MB1 - phase, MB2 - teleport, MB3 - cure hunger/identify, MB4-haste). That is, MB1-3 are more or less slot neutral. I've suggested before putting haste in MB8 and tele self in the escape book (MB7?), which fit thematically, though I doubt that will happen. Geez its been a while since I've played...
A bit of repeating won't hurt. There is a very annoying thing about mages, and that is no unified Detection spell. Then, you could put teleport and phase into Escapes and you'd have two more spaces. Too bad there isn't a utility spell book. In that you could have cure hunger, identify, haste, maybe some other stuff like Detection, prieststyle. Replace Tensers with it and keep Recharging. The buff spells you could put into Raal's and Kelek's instead of some of the less useful spells. Bedlam comes to mind.
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Old May 5, 2011, 06:36   #46
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Originally Posted by Philip View Post
Mages don't change with extra firepower, but with escape spells like destruct, lellevel, teleport, telother. Also, if priests are powerful, just nerf them. Remove Clairvoyance? Monster saves against dispel evil(probably not banish though)? Take away the mage-ish spells that are duplicated in the late priest books?
Priests are different, not more powerful. Priests and paladins have hard time in stat-gain area because they have no methods of detecting hounds and other non-evil before finding Godly Insights (as someone here found out hard way by opening a GV cell with Tarrasque in it).

Later than that Mage spells are way more powerful in offensive category, but priests have easier time with defence (because of healing and protection from evil). However priests don't have haste, which makes huge difference in combat. They need to obtain speed from other methods.

This really is comparing apples and oranges (or kumquats).

IMO mage is supposed to be weak(er) in beginning than priest, so current situation is OK for me.
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Old May 5, 2011, 15:29   #47
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A bit of repeating won't hurt. There is a very annoying thing about mages, and that is no unified Detection spell. Then, you could put teleport and phase into Escapes and you'd have two more spaces. Too bad there isn't a utility spell book. In that you could have cure hunger, identify, haste, maybe some other stuff like Detection, prieststyle. Replace Tensers with it and keep Recharging. The buff spells you could put into Raal's and Kelek's instead of some of the less useful spells. Bedlam comes to mind.
In a test to see how badly I could ruin the game, I coded up a spell called "Greater Mapping" for Tenser's, made it 50 mana to cast, Char. Level 35 spell, gave it the same wiz-light effect as the Priests have, and added an immediate area detection of traps/mobs to it.

That made carrying Tenser's worth the while, so to speak.

I'm not saying that's what mages ought to have, but it is interesting to play with the code to see how things affect the game.

I also allowed Mages to cast all the other spells in Tenser's... not a game breaker by any means, as one might think. Having the ability late in a game to cast Enchant Weapon/armor, really does little to the game actually, as most players that late in the game already have items well beyond the +9 range... making enchant little more than a utility spell for non-artifact items that might still be in-use.

Once I figure out how the quiver code works a little better, I'll tinker with the code to see if I can get the spell-scrolls idea to work. I know just enough to be dangerous, as my high-school math teacher used to put it.

-SBux-
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Old May 5, 2011, 20:59   #48
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If the current mage spell selection isn't "blasty" enough... what about a new class of held (melee) weapon that influences your spell casting? Mage-only (or priest-only) egos that affect spells cast from those realms?

Something like a Magic Orb, that does terrible damage if you swat a monster with it in melee, but has tags that add or change some of your damaging spells? Tags could influence spell damage, range, mana cost, etc. The caster gives up the well-known and powerful artifact weapons to increase his casting ability...

The Orb of Karnos (+0,+0) (1d3)
This glittering onyx orb was borne by a terrible Dark Wizard in days of yore. It brings forth magical power from the depths of the multiverse.

Causes your damaging spells to do +20% damage.
+4 intelligence, wisdom, speed.
Provides resistance to fire, dark.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
Speeds your mana regen.
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Old May 5, 2011, 22:55   #49
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If the current mage spell selection isn't "blasty" enough... what about a new class of held (melee) weapon that influences your spell casting? Mage-only (or priest-only) egos that affect spells cast from those realms?
Might there be some merit in borrowing magestaffs from FA?

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Old May 5, 2011, 23:50   #50
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Might there be some merit in borrowing magestaffs from FA?

A.
Would those of us who are well versed in all the variants please expound on the merits of FA magestaffs for me? (I fear this is going to another line of thought, though....)


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If the current mage spell selection isn't "blasty" enough... what about a new class of held (melee) weapon that influences your spell casting? Mage-only (or priest-only) egos that affect spells cast from those realms?

That's not quite the gist of my thread-topic-point; wasn't trying to suggest that mage spells are not "blasty" enough. The game has developed such that coders have built in mob-resistances to most of the base elemental attacks, which comprise of all but 1 attack spell (M-Missile) in the base4 mage books. The priest attack spell(s), on the other hand, arguably have far more power and utility than the mage spells simply because they are either not resisted, or they are designed to attack specific strains of mobs (i.e., evil stuff). Mage's don't get an alternative non-elemental attacks until much later when the advanced books eventually turn-up.

Mass Psyonic Blast, or something other useful attack spell, prevents mages from doing anything significant with the base set of books. People here are not bashful about telling me my feeble tactics are the base of my malcontent with the current book system. I'm not suggesting that any of the base elemental attack spells in the base set of spell books be adjusted upwards in damage.

I'm trying to put forth the idea that with a spell-scroll system, mages would not be run-of-the-mill warriors with mana anymore. Rather, scrounging around for spells in the deep, mages could gather a wider variety of utility and attack spells giving them the ability to conjure up mage-like solutions to various situations.

While I like your idea of a spell-power-boosting items, I doubt they could realistically fit into the game. Like xbows & bows of extra might/shots, they would have to be put through rigorous play-testing, as it would definitely affect the power-balance of the game. (Ever wonder why you never find a sling of extra shots?? )


Anyhoooo.....


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