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Old November 3, 2013, 23:15   #41
Scatha
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Originally Posted by Infinitum View Post
Maybe it'd be easier to balance smithing by having a set number of uses each game rather than being limited by the random number of forges (and # of uses these have)?

For example, say there's guaranteed to be a forge present on each level, but without any inherent uses. Instead, the player receives one point of, say, "inspiration" each time he enters a new level (so a set number of 18 each game, discounting depth 50' and the throne room) up to a lowish cap (3 points maybe?) to prevent players from hoarding points into the lategame and suddenly filling all of their resistance-holes in one go. Each point of inspiration would directly correspond to one forge-usage otherwise.

This would both put less stress on players to find enough forges earlygame to justify all that xp spent as well as curbing revelations-fueled lategame crazyness. Also, this leaves some design space for additional traits using smithing/inspiration such as setting up wards, recharging staffs, identifying items and so on.
This is an interesting idea. (Thanks for your comments in the other thread, too, by the way.)

If you were going to have some cap on items produced like this it might be more natural to link it to the Smithing skill. However you've recognised and addressed the issue that players would be tempted to hoard the resource until the end of the game (players already do this with turns).

Uses coming with the forges makes some flavourful sense (though so would inspiration), but is also very naturally a mechanic where you can't stockpile. It is possible that it could be outweighed by having a mechanic which naturally comes with lower variance, but we should recognise that if we have to add a hack to stop stockpiling then that is a cost.

Inspiration coming with depth descended is also pretty abstract. But at least we do already give experience for that, so it's not a completely new time for character improvement.

At present as you've described the mechanic my guess is that it's not worth switching to, but I am intrigued.
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Old November 4, 2013, 01:14   #42
BlueFish
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Originally Posted by half View Post
We thought about this, but it wouldn't work. You could generate a forge instantly whenever you want one by level scumming.
Vanilla Angband "balances" this with a timer for level feelings - you have to have spent some amount of time on a level before the next one will generate a feeling. Such a time limit could be used to balance "forge feelings". Maybe 500 turns?
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Old November 4, 2013, 01:14   #43
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Agreed with Scatha, that's an interesting idea, Infinitum.

But I do still like the randomness of forges as it stands. Fixed uses throughout the game would make smithing feel less interesting to me.
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Old November 4, 2013, 01:31   #44
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I guess it all boils down to the "forge timer" the game uses to guarantee the player at least some baseline number of forges. That timer can be, and to some extent should be, gamed. It's why smiths are motivated more than other characters to fully explore levels. Is there a better way to help smiths find enough forges?

One answer would be for the forge timer to only be reset for seen forges rather than generated forges. Would there be an issue with that? (Yes, forges seen via Revelations would reset the timer.)
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Old November 4, 2013, 03:17   #45
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What if you could create a 1 use forge by sacrificing one point of strength and a light source? Maybe make it a smithing ability if it's still too cheap.
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Old November 4, 2013, 10:33   #46
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Originally Posted by BlueFish View Post
Vanilla Angband "balances" this with a timer for level feelings - you have to have spent some amount of time on a level before the next one will generate a feeling. Such a time limit could be used to balance "forge feelings". Maybe 500 turns?
That's a good point. In Vanilla, the turn penalty is quite trivial, leading to macros to rest for the required time etc. But in Sil it would mean something.
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Old November 4, 2013, 16:33   #47
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It seems, at least to me that the whole 2-use vs 3-use forges issue is exasperated by hard break points in armour enchantment:

9 is good : helm of brillance, boots of speed, +2 stealth on leather etc.
10 has a couple of good items: +2 gloves of forging, +2 stealth on boots
11: corset of protection
12(a big jump): crown of grace, cloak of protection, +2 evasion on round shield
13-14: I feel like I've got nothing better then shaving some weight off.
15 (another jump): Gauntlets of strength, +3 stealth on leather
16-17: ?
18 (big jump for stealth): shadow cloak, +3 stealth on cloak, +3 stealth on boots, also +3 gloves of forging

So reaching a 3(or 4) use forge at 17 smithing I'd forge a helm with +1 light radius & loremaster. But a 2 use forge at 16 or 17 leaves me scratching my head for something useful. Normally I'll just id a couple of junk items (treacherous path etc.) Am I missing something? Is there actually anything good between 15 & 18? or 12 & 15?
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Old November 4, 2013, 16:36   #48
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Depends on what abilities you take -- 13 is the breakpoint for some very useful rings iirc (+2 acc, +2 eva, I think even +0 amulet blessed realm but don't quote me on that)
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Old November 4, 2013, 16:47   #49
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Sure, but taking jeweller is pretty expensive if your going armour -> enchantment -> artiface -> grace. I assume 13 & 14 are also good for artistry. It's armour enchantment that suffers the gaps.

Edit: 17 is a dwarf mask of clarity which I guess is useful to carry as a swap but not something I'd use regularly. I guess I'm saying I'd prefer some smoothing of the transitions.

Edit2: Feeling stupid again. You can skip enchantment if you take jeweller can't you. The ridiculous thing is it's taken me this long to work that out.

Last edited by wobbly; November 13, 2013 at 07:18.
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Old November 7, 2013, 00:12   #50
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I can't deny it. I have a strong urge whenever I play a smith to produce Galvorn items (far more than Mithril in fact). Sadly, even my best smith never succeeded to do so.
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