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Old March 22, 2014, 15:40   #21
BlueFish
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I appreciate the game design intent of removing those staves but in practice they are some of the most powerful items in the game, and by removing them, the game would be made significantly harder. In case that matters to anybody.
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Old March 22, 2014, 22:55   #22
Scatha
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We could gently discourage the dive-and-repeat-950' strategy without hurting novice players by making the minimum depth increase marginally faster if you're well below your current one. It's a relatively opaque mechanic anyway, but maybe this would feel bad for people.

BlueFish: we do keep an eye on balance, but typically make several changes which make the game both easier and harder. There are some making-it-easier ones we have in mind for future versions.
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Old March 22, 2014, 23:40   #23
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We could gently discourage the dive-and-repeat-950' strategy without hurting novice players by making the minimum depth increase marginally faster if you're well below your current one. It's a relatively opaque mechanic anyway, but maybe this would feel bad for people.
that's what i tried. it felt fine to me (a few of my ladder games were played this way) but others didn't like the idea and i forgot about it. let me know if you want to try it out.
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Old March 23, 2014, 00:28   #24
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I like having an incentive to dive to the deepest level I can handle. That's where I'm having the most fun, where the challenges are best tuned to my current capabilities. If you punish players for diving, it becomes like Crawl, where players are rewarded for making the game as boring as possible, taking the easiest option at each step. The interaction between the mindepth clock and diving is the biggest thing that makes Sil great.

Staff of Treasures can be fun, but I'd rather you kill that than kill diving entirely.
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Old March 23, 2014, 00:37   #25
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Originally Posted by absolutego View Post
if you agree that there is a problem, why not try to address it? you can care about returning players, as long as you don't upset the balance for new ones. i actually experimented with this and had what i thought was an elegant solution, but others disagreed and i dropped it... in any case, i don't think "you can just not do optimal things" is a good way to defend an argument.
I consider a few thousand turns available to explore 900-950 to be some of the most enjoyable turns of Sil I ever play.

One way for a player to re-balance the game on their own, if they feel optimal play of one build is boring due to too many turns available at 950, is to just play a different build, maybe weaker but more interesting in some way.

Not to state the obvious, but Sil already has a turncount limit, at least until min depth is 1000. That's pretty fundamental. A player playing around within that turn limit - maybe doing a build that can dive quick due to stealth but who wants lots of turns deep to gather a sufficient kit to win, seems exactly the sort of rich gameplay possibility the flat turncount allows, as it stands.

This idea that too many turns available when the player reaches 950 is a game design deficiency seems utterly bizarre to me, and surely comes exclusively from veteran players who have spent a long time excruciating about the best way to game the game. I suspect most if not all of these players already care about minimizing turncount anyway, for the ladder score.
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Old March 23, 2014, 01:28   #26
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Re: treasures, I'm pretty sure getting rid of these would have a similar effect to no-selling in vanilla: it removes a pressure to minmax. As others have mentioned, you can generally tell where tasty things are by using _rev anyways.

Alternately, you could change "song of trees" to be "song of treas" and have the discovery radius be relative to your song skill
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Old March 23, 2014, 01:39   #27
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Alternately, you could change "song of trees" to be "song of treas" and have the discovery radius be relative to your song skill
Game development by typo. I like it
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Old March 23, 2014, 07:13   #28
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I like having an incentive to dive to the deepest level I can handle. That's where I'm having the most fun, where the challenges are best tuned to my current capabilities. If you punish players for diving, it becomes like Crawl, where players are rewarded for making the game as boring as possible, taking the easiest option at each step. The interaction between the mindepth clock and diving is the biggest thing that makes Sil great.
i'm not sure i follow you, both games score mostly on turncount (leaving aside optional content). in crawl you dive for score and the game is harder. in sil, once you're familiar with the game, diving becomes the best option because it's relatively safe given how xp works, and you get better loot. if you let people grind 950' for ~10k-15k turns (out of 30k) you have what clouded mentioned, characters that are much too strong.

a related problem is that 950' is inherently safer for many characters than 900' because you cannot be shafted. "common sense" aside, you could have shafts drop you on a new 950' level.

anyway this is frosting on the cake, what i really dislike is treasures-scumming. :P
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Old March 23, 2014, 19:20   #29
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i'm not sure i follow you, both games score mostly on turncount (leaving aside optional content). in crawl you dive for score and the game is harder. in sil, once you're familiar with the game, diving becomes the best option because it's relatively safe given how xp works, and you get better loot.
If people played for score, that would make sense. But only like, the top 1% of roguelike players, people who can fairly consistently win, play for score. Most players are just trying to maximize their chances of winning, which in Crawl is done by methodically clearing the easiest level at any given time, and in Sil is done by diving to the lowest level you can handle so you have the best loot when it comes time to face the throne room.
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Old March 23, 2014, 19:33   #30
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If people played for score, that would make sense. But only like, the top 1% of roguelike players, people who can fairly consistently win, play for score. Most players are just trying to maximize their chances of winning, which in Crawl is done by methodically clearing the easiest level at any given time, and in Sil is done by diving to the lowest level you can handle so you have the best loot when it comes time to face the throne room.
This wouldn't really change without treasures though. It just would make scumming a little less efficient, while ironman / beginners-in-time-trouble play is not affected at all.

Imo, people play for score in Sil, and the single most important score-bonus is kill / not-kill of Morgoth, followed by Sils taken. That is why so many players go for the kill and three Sils all the time (and so many winning chars look so similar) and it is apparently such a no-brainer to do so, that people are under the impression Sil scores "mostly on turncount" - if people were trying to maximize chances of winning, they would go for simple Sil-grabbers more often.
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