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Old December 3, 2021, 21:02   #1
skydyr
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Spellbook proposal

Rather than generating all spellbooks for all classes and having most of them turn out to be junk (particularly with no selling), what if the frequency of spellbooks were turned down a bit but any time a spellbook is generated it is of the right class?

The only effect I can think of would be that some useless high level feelings would be more accurate, and you wouldn't have to re-squelch books on a regular basis because you switched classes.
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Old December 4, 2021, 19:42   #2
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@skydyr-
Off-brand books are already made less frequent.
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Old December 4, 2021, 20:25   #3
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When the new classes were introduced there was some consideration to just not generating useless spellbooks. But there were a few things against it:
  • If a new player started as a warrior, they wouldn't even know spellbooks existed
  • Having them drop kind of advertises for the other classes, or at least reminds you they exist
  • There's a long tradition of mages finding the deepest priest spellbook on DL5 that we didn't want to break
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Old December 4, 2021, 20:32   #4
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when you think about it, a dictionary could be a "spell book"
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Old December 4, 2021, 20:35   #5
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For me the agony of exploring a level 9 feeling level only to find a top tier spell book you can't even read or sell is part of the rich and bitter tapestry of Angband life
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Old December 7, 2021, 13:21   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
When the new classes were introduced there was some consideration to just not generating useless spellbooks. But there were a few things against it:
  • If a new player started as a warrior, they wouldn't even know spellbooks existed
  • Having them drop kind of advertises for the other classes, or at least reminds you they exist
  • There's a long tradition of mages finding the deepest priest spellbook on DL5 that we didn't want to break
Would it be possible to make level feeling or value contingent on the item's applicability to the class rather than outright not generating them?

Going even further, I like the idea of having level feelings be customizable by the player in some regard--something as simple as having a "preferred" weapon type that weights level feeling up to something complex as the item squelcher (or even just allowing ignored item types to not factor into level feeling at all).
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Old December 7, 2021, 16:29   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
When the new classes were introduced there was some consideration to just not generating useless spellbooks. But there were a few things against it:
  • If a new player started as a warrior, they wouldn't even know spellbooks existed
  • Having them drop kind of advertises for the other classes, or at least reminds you they exist
  • There's a long tradition of mages finding the deepest priest spellbook on DL5 that we didn't want to break
At least regarding the last, there's also a long history of removing useless objects from the game. It's been probably 20 years or more since skulls and pottery and other trash was removed, and I don't see these books as much different, particularly as there are more of them than before. I don't see how adding a potentially frustrating event that doesn't improve the gameplay helps the game. We could just as well decide to add or subtract a random factor from the level feeling, so that a level that's a 5 could be sensed as anything from, say 8-2 depending on the roll, but I don't know that it would make the game better.

I'll concede the first point, though I actually think warriors make for a poor class for beginners.

For the second, there are already reminders whenever you start a new game and in the different classes of human that are found throughout the game (witches, rogues, paladins, etc.)
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Old December 7, 2021, 17:57   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skydyr View Post
At least regarding the last, there's also a long history of removing useless objects from the game. It's been probably 20 years or more since skulls and pottery and other trash was removed, and I don't see these books as much different, particularly as there are more of them than before. I don't see how adding a potentially frustrating event that doesn't improve the gameplay helps the game. We could just as well decide to add or subtract a random factor from the level feeling, so that a level that's a 5 could be sensed as anything from, say 8-2 depending on the roll, but I don't know that it would make the game better.
On the other hand, if you don't generate junk, you lose a lot of the exhilarating rush of randomly generating gear. After all the exact same argument could be applied to mundane weapons (and armor, yeah sure a [1,0] hat is better than nothing on D1, but only marginally so). Or to Helms of Piety for anybody but Priests and Paladins. Or crappy artifacts.

If you can't be disappointed, you can't be thrilled either.

As an aside, I think all of this makes for a stronger argument for the removal of level feelings than it does unusable spellbooks (or at least turning level feelings off by default). I frankly don't think they contribute anything to the game, they encourage excessively scummy behavior, and they create frustrations like this. I don't use level feelings, and finding some other class' book never bothers me, likely because I never see that glorious "9" to get excited about.
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Old December 11, 2021, 04:32   #9
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It is annoying to find a good spell book that you can't use, but that is all. Just a minor annoyance.

As far as level feeling; I could take or leave it concerning treasure as it currently is. I would however suggest an alternative should it be removed. Treasure Detection could instead give a vague feeling along with its current pinpointing of object locations.
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Old December 11, 2021, 05:23   #10
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Originally Posted by Raerick View Post
Treasure Detection could instead give a vague feeling along with its current pinpointing of object locations.
I don't really like the idea of feelings (after all, sometimes what you REALLY need is a stack of CCW, and level feelings can't really help with that). However, I'd be down with a very vague item category, maybe something like:

1. Equippable
2. Invokable
3. Consumable
4. Spellbook

Then if you really need better equipment, you can prioritize the equippable stuff. If you really need consumables, you can prioritize the consumables. So more useful than just stars, but also nowhere near as useful as the Rogue's unique spell.
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