Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old June 8, 2009, 01:22   #21
etaomyx
Rookie
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 17
etaomyx is on a distinguished road
Wow, great discussion! I'm glad this idea is being contemplated. My thoughts:

1. I like geometric prices (in particular, doubling), as I mentioned on the other thread. You could track the number of net "forced restocks" per item rather than the final prices or number of items purchased, and compute prices from that, which I would conjecture to be simpler/smaller. When the item gets restocked "naturally", the counter could be decremented. Geometric prices are simple enough to calculate/understand, and make totally excessive buying unfeasible even in the late game, something which linear price increases (for example) would not do. The price index or multiplier for the super-normally priced items could be listed next to the price in the GUI in some way to alert the player.

2. I'm sort of averse to the idea of making special cases (EDIT: aside for ignoring BM) of some items, since I think everyone has a different idea about what items are "essential". I'm for leaving store restocking how it is (minus buyouts) as much as possible, but when the player buys all of a stocked book/scroll/food/spikes/potion/ammo/light item, it is immediately force-restocked. Which is to say, if you can buy it in the town at all, you can acquire as much as you need, provided you are willing to pay the escalating prices. I think differences in the relative importance of items should be incorporated in the frequency/quantity of restocking that item and/or base price, and not the mechanic by which it is restocked.

3. It would be straightforward to modify store_create_random to prefer generating price-inflated items. In this way, the shop's inventory would tend to adapt to the player's demand.

I would be happy to help write some code for these things or related proposals, if it does seem like a good idea.

Last edited by etaomyx; June 8, 2009 at 01:32.
etaomyx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 8, 2009, 01:23   #22
Nick
Vanilla maintainer
 
Nick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canberra, Australia
Age: 56
Posts: 9,169
Donated: $60
Nick will become famous soon enoughNick will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald Jonker View Post
3. Is it feasible to have no town source of endgame consumables w/ current dungeon generation?
Should FA's ordering system be considered here? This involves most potions (stat potions are excluded) and all scrolls that the player has seen being orderable from a store (at BM prices). It doesn't help ironmen, but I'm comfortable with that
__________________
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
Nick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 8, 2009, 05:28   #23
buzzkill
Prophet
 
buzzkill's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 2,939
Donated: $8
buzzkill is on a distinguished road
This was a ridiculous list of so-called necessities (you just got greedy Donald (really, Detect Treasure, a necessity)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald Jonker View Post
Code:
1.!rStrength
2.!rInt
3.!rWis
4.!rDex
5.!rCon
9.?dTrap
10.?phase
15.?ID
20.?light
21.?WoR
22.?Satisfy_Hunger
...and could probably trimmed further.

I also liked this bit...

Quote:
Originally Posted by etaomyx
2. I'm sort of averse to the idea of making special cases of some items, since I think everyone has a different idea about what items are "essential". I'm for leaving store restocking how it is (minus buyouts) as much as possible, but when the player buys all of a stocked book/scroll/food/spikes/potion/ammo/light item, it is immediately force-restocked. Which is to say, if you can buy it in the town at all, you can acquire as much as you need, provided you are willing to pay the escalating prices. I think differences in the relative importance of items should be incorporated in the frequency/quantity of restocking that item and/or base price, and not the mechanic by which it is restocked.
__________________
www.mediafire.com/buzzkill - Get your 32x32 tiles here. UT32 now compatible Ironband and Quickband 9/6/2012.
My banding life on Buzzkill's ladder.
buzzkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 8, 2009, 06:42   #24
Atarlost
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 441
Atarlost is on a distinguished road
There are necessities and then there are things that you might use if you could get them reliably, but if you can't it's better to not have to think about whether you have them or not and justdo without. A lot of the list falls into that second category.
__________________
One Ring to rule them all. One Ring to bind them.
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness interrupt the movie.
Atarlost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 8, 2009, 08:47   #25
bebo
Adept
 
bebo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Milan, Italy
Posts: 213
bebo is on a distinguished road
Following buzzkill's trend i would cut the list even more, with a few noticeable changes:

Code:
1.!rStrength
2.!rInt
3.!rWis
4.!rDex
5.!rCon
10.?phase
15.?ID
21.?WoR
I would also like to add:

Code:
24._TelSelf
25._dEvil
26.!rLvl (what's the commonly used abbreviation here?)
The following

Code:
11.?dTreasure   <--->   -dTreasure
13.?mapping     <--->   _mapping
i find absolutely crucial to my style of playing, couldn't live without them - but can be easily replaced in little time with staves/rods found in the dungeon or bought at the store/BM. dTreasure in particular is essential for good diving in my experience.

Regarding

Code:
9.?dTrap
12.?dStairs
i rarely play with warriors, so all i can say is that with the other classes i practically never use them - by the time i need them i always have the spells and/or rods and/or scrolls found in the dungeon.

I'm a bit undecided on

Code:
20.?light   <--->   _light
23.?dInv   <--->   _dInv
by the time they become necessary you can easily afford the staves, which are very common also in the dungeon, so i don't see the need of having the scrolls guaranteed in the shop. On the other hand they are quite necessary. So either guarantee the scrolls or the staves i'd say.

----------------------

It might actually be possible to reserve a couple (not many) slots of the store's inventory for randomized items (of the appropriate ie relevant type), in addition to the fixed ones. With big price premiums. Sort of like a specialized mini-BM within the store.

----------------------

Since we are talking about radical changes here (btw in favor of merging the restore stat pots in just two; against removing the BM - i find it a fun and interesting aspect of gameplay) i might as well suggest getting rid of the limitations for priests to wield only non pointed weapons - it seems kind of silly and more of a leftover from the old d&d days than anything else. This could lead to the removal of the whole "blessed" ego (since they don't add anything in particular if i remember correctly) and weapons from the temple, giving the coders the option of better placement of items between the alchemist and the temple.

------------------------

PS - please merge the priest dStairs and dTraps spells
bebo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 8, 2009, 09:07   #26
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,060
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by bebo View Post
Code:
26.!rLvl (what's the commonly used abbreviation here?)
!rExp (ooh, reply must be at least ten characters ... why??)
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 8, 2009, 09:11   #27
Pete Mack
Prophet
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,592
Donated: $40
Pete Mack is on a distinguished road
Actually, the name of the potion is !rLife, which is also its common name. As for Detect Treasure, I agree that it makes a huge difference. Fortunately, the corresponding rod is fairly common; it makes up for the huge advantage that Rogues would otherwise hold with the cl ~12 spell.
Pete Mack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 8, 2009, 09:11   #28
Magnate
Angband Devteam member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,060
Magnate is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to Magnate Send a message via Yahoo to Magnate
Quote:
Originally Posted by etaomyx View Post
Wow, great discussion! I'm glad this idea is being contemplated. My thoughts:

1. I like geometric prices (in particular, doubling), as I mentioned on the other thread. You could track the number of net "forced restocks" per item rather than the final prices or number of items purchased, and compute prices from that, which I would conjecture to be simpler/smaller. When the item gets restocked "naturally", the counter could be decremented. Geometric prices are simple enough to calculate/understand, and make totally excessive buying unfeasible even in the late game, something which linear price increases (for example) would not do. The price index or multiplier for the super-normally priced items could be listed next to the price in the GUI in some way to alert the player.

2. I'm sort of averse to the idea of making special cases (EDIT: aside for ignoring BM) of some items, since I think everyone has a different idea about what items are "essential". I'm for leaving store restocking how it is (minus buyouts) as much as possible, but when the player buys all of a stocked book/scroll/food/spikes/potion/ammo/light item, it is immediately force-restocked. Which is to say, if you can buy it in the town at all, you can acquire as much as you need, provided you are willing to pay the escalating prices. I think differences in the relative importance of items should be incorporated in the frequency/quantity of restocking that item and/or base price, and not the mechanic by which it is restocked.

3. It would be straightforward to modify store_create_random to prefer generating price-inflated items. In this way, the shop's inventory would tend to adapt to the player's demand.

I would be happy to help write some code for these things or related proposals, if it does seem like a good idea.
You and I have very similar views on this, and as soon as Takkaria has given his views, I'd very much appreciate some help coding this up.

One thing to be aware of is Pete Mack's point that things like !rStr need to ramp up in cost *much* faster than !CCW or ?phase, because of the number needed in a game. But as you say, this can be achieved with the right restocking numbers and cost multipliers.
Magnate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 8, 2009, 16:52   #29
Donald Jonker
Knight
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 593
Donald Jonker is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzkill View Post
This was a ridiculous list of so-called necessities (you just got greedy Donald (really, Detect Treasure, a necessity)
For the record, that was a list of all items currently stocked at the alchemist. (Not items I personally judge to be necessities.) There's a lot there that I personally never buy, but I would be loath to exclude them for that reason alone.

I'm on the fence regarding ?dTreasure, on account of the fact that you usually find the rod. The rod obsoletes scrolls and staves (unless it gets destroyed - which has happened to me more than once) - this may be a bigger problem than store stocking, since you find it so early and reliably.

I'm inclined to agree with Bebo that it makes sense to guarantee stocks of staves instead of scrolls when functions are duplicated. Scrolls are better, and you can switch when you find supplies of them in the dungeon. It would also mean that you would need to find them in stacks to make it worth it. No one's going to devote home space to ?mapping.
__________________
Bands, / Those funny little plans / That never work quite right.
-Mercury Rev
Donald Jonker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 8, 2009, 17:37   #30
Donald Jonker
Knight
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 593
Donald Jonker is on a distinguished road
It also just occurred to me that we can transfer ?phase and ?WoR entirely to the General Store.
__________________
Bands, / Those funny little plans / That never work quite right.
-Mercury Rev
Donald Jonker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why is inventory management gospel?? Orillian Vanilla 43 March 31, 2009 02:21
Feature suggestion 'l'ook for inventory/equipment PaulBlay Development 5 March 1, 2009 09:03
Proposed inventory changes! Comments please! Orillian Vanilla 13 February 11, 2009 22:03
Elemental attacks destroying inventory items - challenging or frustrating? hugorune Vanilla 24 January 28, 2009 09:23
inventory management newb question Halloween Jack Vanilla 16 October 30, 2007 14:14


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 18:43.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.