Angband.oook.cz
Angband.oook.cz
AboutVariantsLadderForumCompetitionComicScreenshotsFunniesLinks

Go Back   Angband Forums > Angband > Vanilla

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old June 18, 2009, 09:51   #11
will_asher
DaJAngband Maintainer
 
will_asher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 1,124
Donated: $10
will_asher is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
Either it is hard to miss something when targeting something else, or it isn't. The rule, which ISTR was described prominently in the early rules, erred ridiculously in the direction of "it's hard to miss".

The rule was introduced to stop players shooting "through" party members. However, it is exceptionally hard to get these things right and still playable, and the D&D combination of evasion and damage reduction into a single value called AC makes it impossible. The only way to fix the rule is to throw it away. That is a lesson to be considered when thinking about things like "cover" bonuses in an angband framework.
The nice thing about pen & paper role-playing games like DND is that when the rules don't work, the DM can change them. How good the DM is makes a whole lot of difference in how good the game is going to be. It's what makes the game playable because it's nearly impossible to make rules that work in every situation that comes up. ..But now I'm way off-topic so maybe I should shut up.
__________________
Will_Asher
aka LibraryAdventurer

My old variant DaJAngband:
http://sites.google.com/site/dajangbandwebsite/home (defunct and so old it's forked from Angband 3.1.0 -I think- but it's probably playable...)
will_asher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 18, 2009, 20:49   #12
takkaria
Veteran
 
takkaria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,947
Donated: $40
takkaria is on a distinguished road
+1 from me too.
__________________
takkaria whispers something about options. -more-
takkaria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 19, 2009, 09:38   #13
etaomyx
Rookie
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 17
etaomyx is on a distinguished road
Apologies if I have misunderstood, but in cases like

Code:
............      ........
.@.###.....M  or  .@......
............      .....#..
............      ........
1. Is M visible?
2. Do the walls even cast shadows?

(As a random observation, this LOS system would be totally awesome if Angband were represented in unicode, and so you could print those box-drawing glyphs for walls: then LOS would be completely consistent with the visuals. But I don't know, the # symbol looks rather like it should take up a whole tile?)
etaomyx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 19, 2009, 09:50   #14
PaulBlay
Knight
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 657
PaulBlay is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by etaomyx View Post
(As a random observation, this LOS system would be totally awesome if Angband were represented in unicode)
*ahem*

Anyway to answer your question in cases like the following I think it is only logical to assume that those walls cannot exist. This would necessitate a change to the dungeon generation routines and vault maps.

Code:
............      ........
.@.###.....M  or  .@......
............      .....#..
............      ........
__________________
Currently turning (Angband) Japanese.
PaulBlay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 19, 2009, 09:59   #15
etaomyx
Rookie
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 17
etaomyx is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulBlay View Post
those walls cannot exist
Yep, that's what I had thought. But it also means that rubble would need to be treated differently than walls for LOS, and some occasional strangeness when using stone-to-mud or encountering burrowers ... I don't like where all of that is going.
etaomyx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 19, 2009, 10:24   #16
Atarlost
Swordsman
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 441
Atarlost is on a distinguished road
You still have to handle them somehow unless you remove the tunneling mechanic.
__________________
One Ring to rule them all. One Ring to bind them.
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness interrupt the movie.
Atarlost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 19, 2009, 10:51   #17
PowerDiver
Prophet
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,712
PowerDiver is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by etaomyx View Post
Apologies if I have misunderstood, but in cases like

Code:
............      ........
.@.###.....M  or  .@......
............      .....#..
............      ........
1. Is M visible?
2. Do the walls even cast shadows?

(As a random observation, this LOS system would be totally awesome if Angband were represented in unicode, and so you could print those box-drawing glyphs for walls: then LOS would be completely consistent with the visuals. But I don't know, the # symbol looks rather like it should take up a whole tile?)
Don't overthink the model. It need not be perfect, nor even make sense. The important things are that it should be consistent enough to code easily and properly, and that it gives decent gameplay.

Given that there seems to be sentiment for non-visible in what I called the boundary case, I can state that the M cannot see the @. The reasoning is that an individual disconnected # counts as a radius 0 blockage at the center. Two adjacent would count as a 0-width line. If you draw a line from the center of one square to the center of another, and it passes through a blockage, not visible. That's the rule.

Of course, if someone can come up with a different model that is more intuitive that has better gameplay properties, please step forward. You'll notice I didn't put "feature request" in the title of this thread. At this point it's still the "what should we do" phase. I'd love it if someone came up with something better.
PowerDiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 19, 2009, 11:01   #18
etaomyx
Rookie
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 17
etaomyx is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerDiver View Post
If you draw a line from the center of one square to the center of another, and it passes through a blockage, not visible.
Mmm, okay, but then there can be weird gaps in the field of view, like:

Code:
.......
.@.....
...#...
..... .
.......
etaomyx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 19, 2009, 11:39   #19
PaulBlay
Knight
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 657
PaulBlay is on a distinguished road
You could use these suckers.

http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2580.pdf

Although you would almost certainly need to supply a font to go with that.

[EDIT] I couldn't actually find a font that supports the terminal graphics characters - so I asked someone to add it to their font. .

Code:
#############
#        @
#      ###### 
#      #
########
Code:
▛▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
        @ - Aargh! It burns my eyes!
▌      	▗▄▄▄▄▄ 
▌       ▐█████
▙▄▄▄▄▄▄▟█████
Éomer soon regretted eating that mushroom.
__________________
Currently turning (Angband) Japanese.

Last edited by PaulBlay; June 19, 2009 at 15:08.
PaulBlay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 19, 2009, 15:03   #20
Bandobras
Knight
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 726
Bandobras is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by d_m View Post
This proposal is good--in particular it addresses some annoying inconsistencies with the current treatment of passwall.

Also, I assume your LOS would be symmetric. I consider that one of the most sorely-needed features.
Wholeheartedly agreed.

BTW, I wonder how it relates to LOS modifications in NPP and other variants. I think none were symmetrical and I also don't like the idea that LOS is different from shooting cone, as in NPP. But LOS range and shooting range being different is OK for me. Anyway, I'm curious how the approaches compare...
Bandobras is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
feature request - disturb on reverse LOS PowerDiver Vanilla 2 May 18, 2009 07:46


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 22:05.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.