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Old December 23, 2009, 18:02   #11
d_m
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Originally Posted by dhegler View Post
I would bet that after dlvl 50, most characters are equipped with an artifact weapon that cannot be beat by an ego find. And by that point, the only ego armors anyone may wear would be elvenkind, BoS, and maybe gloves of thievery with a high dex bonus. And probably by dlvl 75, 90%+ slots are all artifacts. At that point, I know the only thing that kept me going was finding Ringil, Cubragol, PDSM, branded seeker bolts and killing all the uniques. All ego drops were basically worthless, as commented.
Don't forget about cloaks of Aman... those can be endgame quality also.
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Old December 23, 2009, 18:05   #12
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There has long been discussion about cutting the dungeon to 60 or 75 levels. Between 50 and 98 the only noticeable point is dl80, when speed rings start to appear. Coupled with the lack of variety in dungeons (see UnAndrew's thread), it does make for a boring period.

I'd be happy to leave the dungeon at 100 levels if enough of the interesting stuff in that thread was implemented. I think that would make for a better game.
I've always liked the idea of "deep stairs" or shafts or whatever, that take you down 5-10 levels. If they were shafts, I could also imagine them not having up stairways (even when playing with connected stairs).

If about 20% of dungeons have one of these deep down staircases, you could probably dive to the bottom at least twice as fast if you wanted to. I guess that could be a problem, but I imagine it being nice, and it's a pretty discoverable game mechanic for new players.

EDIT: In fact, I could imagine many different colors of down staircases, based on how deep they take you. Maybe an incredibly rare black staircase that takes you to dungeon level 99, for instance!
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Old December 26, 2009, 04:32   #13
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Originally Posted by d_m View Post
I've always liked the idea of "deep stairs" or shafts or whatever, that take you down 5-10 levels. If they were shafts, I could also imagine them not having up stairways (even when playing with connected stairs).

If about 20% of dungeons have one of these deep down staircases, you could probably dive to the bottom at least twice as fast if you wanted to. I guess that could be a problem, but I imagine it being nice, and it's a pretty discoverable game mechanic for new players.

EDIT: In fact, I could imagine many different colors of down staircases, based on how deep they take you. Maybe an incredibly rare black staircase that takes you to dungeon level 99, for instance!
I like this alot.

I think DL 50-99 are, in fact, quite dull, but with one qualifier.

What makes them dull is that it is often terrifyingly dangerous to dive that low unless you are *really* ready for it. However, once you're ready for it, the vast majority of what you find seems dull because of your excellent preparation (save for graveyards, demon pits, some of the uniques, etc).

As many of the threads here lately have gotten at, there is a non-linearity to the power curve in V right now, in terms of items/artifacts, character stats, insta-kills, monster power, class abilities, etc etc.

Fortunately, we've got a great, active maintainer community that's working towards tweaking a lot of these issues. I can't wait until Takkaria's back and we get a full new version to play with
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Old December 26, 2009, 20:32   #14
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Originally Posted by dhegler View Post
I would bet that after dlvl 50, most characters are equipped with an artifact weapon that cannot be beat by an ego find.
I don't agree with that at all. Any ego weapon with damage dice 3d6 or better has at least a chance of dealing more damage than most artifacts. Having slay_evil (for endgame), +toDam >15, and bonus blows are the things I look for, especially for Blades of Chaos, Scythes of Slicing, and Maces of Disruption.
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Old December 26, 2009, 21:51   #15
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I don't agree with that at all. Any ego weapon with damage dice 3d6 or better has at least a chance of dealing more damage than most artifacts. Having slay_evil (for endgame), +toDam >15, and bonus blows are the things I look for, especially for Blades of Chaos, Scythes of Slicing, and Maces of Disruption.
Those can be a good swap for fighting M or some of the other highest-level uniques, but usually I'll find an artifact weapon that provides much-needed resists that are more universally useful.
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Old December 29, 2009, 19:16   #16
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Ego items are rather useless for the most part around dlvl 50 in my experience, other than ammo. And, it does feel like artifacts are more common than usable egos by dlvl 30 or so for me.

My recent dwarf rogue has the Lance of Anfalith (7d8) (+7, +14) (+2)
+2 INT
+10% search
Slays orcs
*Slays Undead*
Poison brand
Resist Lightning, fire, nexus
Activates for Frost Ball d100 @ 70 turns
4 blows per round
126 vs orcs, 126 vs. non-poison resisters, 197 undead, 56 others.

I won't ever touch an ego item, and I found this between dlvl 20-25. Maybe a Mace of Disruption of Fury +2 (I think I found this last game), but without the other resists or *slays*, it's not as useful...
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Old December 29, 2009, 19:45   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhegler View Post
Ego items are rather useless for the most part around dlvl 50 in my experience, other than ammo. And, it does feel like artifacts are more common than usable egos by dlvl 30 or so for me.

My recent dwarf rogue has the Lance of Anfalith (7d8) (+7, +14) (+2)
+2 INT
+10% search
Slays orcs
*Slays Undead*
Poison brand
Resist Lightning, fire, nexus
Activates for Frost Ball d100 @ 70 turns
4 blows per round
126 vs orcs, 126 vs. non-poison resisters, 197 undead, 56 others.

I won't ever touch an ego item, and I found this between dlvl 20-25. Maybe a Mace of Disruption of Fury +2 (I think I found this last game), but without the other resists or *slays*, it's not as useful...
That is pretty amazing for dl25 - how fast/slow were you playing? That should have a min depth more like 40 or 50 (spoiler will tell you).

Perhaps Timo is right - perhaps artifacts should be fewer and rarer. But this all needs revisiting after ego item drops are toned down a bit.
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Old December 30, 2009, 12:11   #18
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I was surprised as heck when I found it. I typically found only the "Paur" gloves, Phial and maybe some low-level artifact by that point. It wasn't slay evil, but slay orc, once I checked again. When I found a lance 7d8, I knew something wasn't quite right and surprised the heck out of me when I saw how powerful it was. I haven't found anything comparable to that armor-wise yet, just some mid-level artifacts. I did find +10 BoS around the same time I found the lance. I was on cloud nine...

I was playing relatively fast down to dlvl 20-25, as I had FA already and multiple blows with my old weapon (which I thought was good at 20-25 per hit at the time).

Since, I have slowed down a bit and am only around dlvl 40 or so right now. Between 30-35 I had multiple levels that had 2-3 artifacts each, incredible luck, then it came back down to what I consider "normal" between 35-40.

It has made the game less challenging for me so far, but also been more fun. I guess the fun will start running out around dlvl 50 or so when my slots are maxed out with mostly artifacts and no need to egos any more...
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Old December 30, 2009, 12:16   #19
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Originally Posted by Magnate View Post
That is pretty amazing for dl25 - how fast/slow were you playing? That should have a min depth more like 40 or 50 (spoiler will tell you).

Perhaps Timo is right - perhaps artifacts should be fewer and rarer. But this all needs revisiting after ego item drops are toned down a bit.
How do I check the spoiler file to look for randarts? You mean that they are generated at birth in a file somewhere and then used throughout the game? So, I can look in the file to see what is possible? I will look for the file, but where is it?
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Old December 30, 2009, 12:22   #20
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Originally Posted by dhegler View Post
How do I check the spoiler file to look for randarts? You mean that they are generated at birth in a file somewhere and then used throughout the game? So, I can look in the file to see what is possible? I will look for the file, but where is it?
You have to generate the spoiler file yourself. There are two ways:

1. Wait until you die, and choose the "spoilers" option from the death menu. This avoids marking your save file as a cheater, but has an obvious drawback.

2. Use debug mode (ctrl-a) and go to the spoiler menu from there ("). This can be done in-game, but marks the character as a cheater. If you really want to see the spoilers before dying, do it this way.

In both cases the spoiler file is called "artifact.spo" and is created in the lib/user directory (which is ~/.angband/Angband on POSIX systems).
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