New spell lists

[miyazaki]

Hi all,

I am not a programmer, but I really wanted to help the development process of Angband. I started looking through the files to see if there was something that I could/wanted to modify. I noticed that, though convoluted, I could change the spell lists (something that I have seen talked about a number of times on this site) and decided to take a run at it.

I have been around long enough to know the arguments against doing this: that spell lists are broken, that classes need to be rebalanced, that this spell or that is essential. But I think that with all the recent changes, especially to consumable rates, that this is a good time to try some new spell lists for the classes.

Effectively, all classes have lost spells. Some just a few (mages), some a lot (rangers). I think there is much more differentiation between classes and the changes will forces players to use more items from the dungeon (both good things).

Guiding principles of each class spell list:

Mage: powerful, offensive magic
Ranger: supplementary, nature-based, protective magic
Rogue: detection and trickery magic
Priest: healing and anti-evil magic
Paladin: minor healing and buffing magic

It won't be perfect, but I hope that people will try the new lists out and give feedback. Even if they are not used officially, they can give some insight into how the classes can develop in the future.

I have included a table of the changes as well as the p_class file that can be dropped right into the angband directory to make the changes.

[Antoine]

Looks very promising

A.

[buzzkill]

If I'm reading that chart right, it seems that Bless, Chant and Prayer have been taken away from priests. I was thinking it might be nice to replace some or all of those with an AC buffing or hold life spell. I realize it's beyond the scope of altering the edit files, just throwing it out there.

[Timo Pietilä]

Originally Posted by miyazaki

Hi all,

I have included a table of the changes as well as the p_class file that can be dropped right into the angband directory to make the changes.

Looks like paladin loses his only detection spell until finding Godly Insights (so basically paladin is warrior until that), and priest loses resist heat and cold which feels wrong. Also OoD manacost has been raised which feels wrong (make it deeper instead), and detection has now huge manacost, which only makes priest and paladin to rest more and play slower. Make clairvoyance cost a lot more, but leave detection manacost as it is.

Mage doesn't get resistance but Ranger and Rogue do? That should be other way around. Ranger loses all detections? That's serious crippling. You make ranger basically a archer-class (warrior with good missile weapon skill) by that change.

How about making Ranger use priest book instead? Minor healings and buffings from that, "detect evil" feels right for Ranger, though detect monsters is even more in theme. No orb or high-level spells at all IE no books 7,8 and 9 at all.

I would also like to swap books 5 and 6 in priest lists and move detect monsters to Beginners Handbook as paladin/ranger only spell. Detection is a game changer for priests currently (maybe deny it from paladin/ranger), and lack of that makes stat-gain depths a real slowdown because (mainly) of hounds. Swapping those two books would make game a bit smoother (no danger, danger, danger, near miss, GI, dive, dive, dive, kill Morgoth)

Rogue seem to retain satisfy hunger while everyone else loses it. Bug? Also loses light room which is one of the main utility spells. Somehow rogue losing utility spells feels wrong.

Changing which spell is in which book in which order requires editing spell.txt.

(BTW. it looks like you are using old edit-files. No "reveal monsters" for example)

[PowerDiver]

Originally Posted by miyazaki

Mage: powerful, offensive magic
Ranger: supplementary, nature-based, protective magic
Rogue: detection and trickery magic
Priest: healing and anti-evil magic
Paladin: minor healing and buffing magic

IMO priests and mages should get all spells in their realms. In particular, priests require buffing magic. They need buffs just to break even. If you take that away, they need to have their hit rolls increased to compensate.

[Derakon]

Yeah, priests are completely hopeless in melee until they pass stat-gain, and melee is their primary damage source until post-stat-gain as well as OoD is too expensive/failure-prone.

[bebo]

Originally Posted by PowerDiver

IMO priests and mages should get all spells in their realms.

This.

Rogues feel pretty good at the moment to me, having detect treasure as a spell is an absolutely huge advantage over all other classes, so i don't know how making it available to mages might change things though.

And as i already stated in the (almost countless) threads in the past about spell list changes, i fell the branding and enchanting spells should be altogether removed. As the fact that all of the various bless spells could be merged into one with clvl dependent duration. And many more suggestions, which i'm too tired to think about atm...

I'm totally in favour of making some substantial changes to rangers though, they don't feel that distinctive to me right now, with the exception of the extra shots bonus which is way overpowered anyway i think.

[miyazaki]

You have touched on a lot of the points that I considered while coming up with this scheme.

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä

Looks like paladin loses his only detection spell until finding Godly Insights (so basically paladin is warrior until that), and priest loses resist heat and cold which feels wrong. Also OoD manacost has been raised which feels wrong (make it deeper instead), and detection has now huge manacost, which only makes priest and paladin to rest more and play slower. Make clairvoyance cost a lot more, but leave detection manacost as it is.

Basically, a paladin is a warrior. Except that he uses powers from his deity to inflict damage rather than brute strength. I would be happy if all his detection abilities were removed.

OoD has been long discussed as overpowered on this forum. I think that it should be nerfed by reducing the damage/making it effective only on evil creatures/changing from ball to bolt. I can't do this, so I wanted a way to ween priests off of it being their only major source of damage.

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä

Mage doesn't get resistance but Ranger and Rogue do? That should be other way around. Ranger loses all detections? That's serious crippling. You make ranger basically a archer-class (warrior with good missile weapon skill) by that change.

Exactly what I wanted. Warriors do fine without detection. Rangers will as well.

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä

How about making Ranger use priest book instead? Minor healings and buffings from that, "detect evil" feels right for Ranger, though detect monsters is even more in theme. No orb or high-level spells at all IE no books 7,8 and 9 at all.

I agree, though I would rather make them use spells from both realms. Jack of all trades, master of none. But couldn't do this with the current set-up, so I decided to try and make it work with the magic side.

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä

I would also like to swap books 5 and 6 in priest lists and move detect monsters to Beginners Handbook as paladin/ranger only spell. Detection is a game changer for priests currently (maybe deny it from paladin/ranger), and lack of that makes stat-gain depths a real slowdown because (mainly) of hounds. Swapping those two books would make game a bit smoother (no danger, danger, danger, near miss, GI, dive, dive, dive, kill Morgoth)

Hounds have been nerfed to the point that detection is no longer critical. I thought about rearranging spells in the books, but decided that just changing the classes would be enough change for people to handle!

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä

Rogue seem to retain satisfy hunger while everyone else loses it. Bug? Also loses light room which is one of the main utility spells. Somehow rogue losing utility spells feels wrong.

I was convinced by the discussion in this thread that not all magic users should have satisfy hunger in their arsenal.

I think that a rogue walking around the dungeon lighting up every room feels wrong... They should be stealthy, relying on cunning and guile. I would rather see them get extra infravision instead.

Originally Posted by Timo Pietilä

(BTW. it looks like you are using old edit-files. No "reveal monsters" for example)

It was for the table. It was based on old spoiler files. The p-class file was recent.

[PowerDiver]

Originally Posted by bebo

Rogues feel pretty good at the moment to me, having detect treasure as a spell is an absolutely huge advantage over all other classes, so i don't know how making it available to mages might change things though.

Rogues get dObj at CL12 and mages get detect enchantment at CL30. It is a difference, but not a big deal.

[bebo]

Originally Posted by PowerDiver

Rogues get dObj at CL12 and mages get detect enchantment at CL30. It is a difference, but not a big deal.

Actually I quite disagree here.

Based of course on my playing style, by clvl30 i have no need for the (costly) spell since i always carry a nice stack of -DetectTreasure, which i will throw away only when i reach high sp thresholds. In the early levels on the other hand barring huge amounts of scrolls in the shop i always lack sufficient means of object detection. But i freely admit that i compulsively use it whenever i can , so my point of view may be a bit biased.

Also having early access gives a more noticeable boost to divers, making early relevant item finding a lot easier.