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Old April 12, 2017, 18:30   #551
Derakon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
And yeah, status wands are currently way overpowered, but I must admit there was something gloriously satisfying about zapping a wand of stun monster and having it just work and actually do something useful. So I do think it's definitely worth continuing to experiment with ways of balancing always-successful effects so they're not so overpowering. In addition to fiddling with the effects, tweaking the number of charges might be a factor to think about - we're used to status wands being unreliable and having plenty of charges to spam, but no reason they can't be limited to say just 2-3 at a time before needing recharging.
I really like this idea. In fact, single-use wands that automatically "burn up" when used might be an idea worth considering. Basically like a scroll or potion, except it's implicitly aimed at something. Then you can't use them against everything, but they can remain powerful without being unbalanced. Kind of like Potions of Speed are now.

(Which is not to say that the current effects don't need rebalancing, just that I'd rather see the effects remain useful. )
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Old April 12, 2017, 18:51   #552
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
I really like this idea. In fact, single-use wands that automatically "burn up" when used might be an idea worth considering. Basically like a scroll or potion, except it's implicitly aimed at something. Then you can't use them against everything, but they can remain powerful without being unbalanced. Kind of like Potions of Speed are now.
An alternative might be to just have rods rather than wands or staves and give them a suitably long recharge time.
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Old April 12, 2017, 19:15   #553
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An alternative might be to just have rods rather than wands or staves and give them a suitably long recharge time.
The difficulty with rods, which is already present with Rods of Healing/Restoration and with some artifact activations, is that there's that temptation to sit around doing nothing to let the rod recharge, so you can use it in every encounter. I can't think of any way to mitigate that issue short of having much more heavyhanded "clocks" (e.g. by aggressively spawning in new monsters on the level), so I tend to think that rods work best when their recharge times are long enough to be "once per encounter" but they finish recharging shortly after the encounter ends. I guess that can still work with status effects, but it has implications on how strong the status effects can be, because we have to assume the player is capable of laying them all down on at least one target in each fight.

The secondary difficulty with rods of course is that they represent a permanent addition to the player's arsenal -- at least until they get zapped by an electric attack. That makes their impact on player power correspondingly larger compared to a wand.
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Old April 12, 2017, 20:01   #554
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Is it currently possible to tweak the odds of a specific type of wand blowing up on recharge? It would be good if you could set some sort of 'instability' factor in object.txt so that more overpowered wands have higher odds of exploding any time you try to recharge them. (Then you could effectively create your single-shot wands by giving them a single charge and 100% odds of blowing up on recharge, though that's probably taking it a bit too far.)

Or, to be more radical, you could even remove the ability to recharge staves and wands entirely. The initial number of charges is all you're going to get, and once the last charge is gone, it self-destructs.
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Old April 12, 2017, 20:13   #555
Pete Mack
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@Nomad-
More or less. Give it fewer charges and it's likelier to blow up per use
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Old April 12, 2017, 20:18   #556
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Originally Posted by Derakon View Post
The difficulty with rods...is that there's that temptation to sit around doing nothing to let the rod recharge, so you can use it in every encounter.
Yeah this is true. Halls of Mist's intrinsic x-times-per-floor mechanic (for intrinsic ability activation, HoM doesn't do this with devices) is one approach, though of course it only really works with fully non-persistent floors and to some degree HoM's usually-disconnected stairs. Another approach is to have it recharge based on kills or xp gained or some such (and/or a trip to town?).

I'm not necessarily pushing for this sort of change, but the HoM way of recharging a character's intrinsic identify/cure/phase charges only (but completely) through reaching a new floor can be very nice in some ways. Ofc, this doesn't hold as well for the necessary bread and butter utility. It would be really stupid to have to pick and choose where to use your 2 charges of trap detection on a given floor or whatever, at least with the way Angband currently throws traps around randomly.
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Old April 12, 2017, 20:27   #557
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@Nomad-
More or less. Give it fewer charges and it's likelier to blow up per use
Yeah, I suspected there was some sort of internal relationship going on, though it still might be handy to decouple the two to allow more explicit control for different types of wands.

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In fact, single-use wands that automatically "burn up" when used might be an idea worth considering.
I also just realised that we already have this mechanism in the game for one item - potions of Dragon Breath.

Maybe what we actually need is to implement the ability to throw potions. That would, A, make some use of the under-utilised throw command, B, create a new use for the negative potions like Confusion/Slowness/Poison that currently get squelched after the first 'gotcha' moment when you accidentally drink one, and C, create an additional way for risk-averse characters to ID potions if they're too worried about negative effects to gamble on quaffing them.
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Old April 12, 2017, 21:02   #558
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I also just realised that we already have this mechanism in the game for one item - potions of Dragon Breath.

Maybe what we actually need is to implement the ability to throw potions. That would, A, make some use of the under-utilised throw command, B, create a new use for the negative potions like Confusion/Slowness/Poison that currently get squelched after the first 'gotcha' moment when you accidentally drink one, and C, create an additional way for risk-averse characters to ID potions if they're too worried about negative effects to gamble on quaffing them.
I would absolutely be okay with replacing status effect wands with the corresponding potions, at least as an experiment. Add a line to the item description "It can be thrown to affect susceptible opponents", maybe.

Potions of Dragon's Breath are frankly kind of weird though. They're the only potion that prompt you for a direction when you drink them.
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Old April 13, 2017, 12:15   #559
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Had another quick run, so I have more comments.

First, bugs. I found the same (largely useless) randart ring twice over in the dungeon. Each time I found it it came up in the object list as 'A Ring of & Ring'. So there appears to be a bug there. If you turn selling on in the birth options, shopkeepers will offer you the same gold for an un-ID'd potion as they will after you ID it, allowing you to deduce what it is without selling.

The new targetting system is nice, not having to aim past things in order to hit them. Is that done by adjusting the autoaim or has project() been rewritten?

Also I can't tell if uniques are dropping fewer artifacts, but it seems like it, and I can't tell if level generation has been modified, but it seems like it.

I want to make a case against no-save maledictions again:

It makes optimal fighting the same sequence of moves over and over for every class - slow, confuse, and stun the thing or you're losing HP for no good reason, whether you're a high elf mage or a half troll warrior. Once you've done that, even difficult uniques are trivial - I took down bolg and azog in a corridor on a level they should have murdered me without really breaking a sweat (playing a gnome rogue). Stun in particular is brutally effective. Confuse isn't really all that helpful anymore however, and slow certainly isn't what it used to be - so you could say it's only stun that needs fixing but that isn't the issue. The issue is that unless you're carrying these wands and using them for every difficult encounter now you're doing it wrong - which means optimal play requires more key strokes and inventory management - exactly the problem the trap overhaul was meant to solve!

There are already a good many changes to the fundemental mechanics of the game, certainly a new minor version is already justified without including another far reaching change such as this? As a compromise, since Derakon advocated this idea in the first place, can we get O style potion throwing with no saving throw, and revert wands/status effects to their 4.0.5 form, possibly with PowerWyrm's version of the formula for monster saving throws?

I think the other changes so far are working well and it would be cool to see them all implemented into a stable release before heading out into potentially gamebreaking uncharted territory with the status effect stuff.
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Old April 14, 2017, 10:03   #560
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playing angband-win-4.0.3-696-ge906c66, i'm also getting the bug where every other artifact drop is a phial.
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