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Old June 14, 2022, 15:37   #31
emar
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Originally Posted by tangar View Post
IMHO score should define not the grind, not the luck, but your skill. getting OP items by luck or by grinding lvls is meh... while killing Morgy when you wear rugs - is skill
Rags without leaning on potions. I'm wondering what turncounts would look like if curative potions/spells came with significant turn count penalties. Intentionally eating damage as a strategy would suddenly look a lot less skillful.
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Old June 14, 2022, 16:29   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tangar View Post
IMHO score should define not the grind, not the luck, but your skill. getting OP items by luck or by grinding lvls is meh... while killing Morgy when you wear rugs - is skill
How does this sound:
(Standard turncount) * (How many turns it takes to kill Morgoth after first blood) * 0,8 ironman multiplier

Lower the number, higher the score. Something like this would give both speedrunners and uberstrong characters great scores.
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Old June 14, 2022, 17:03   #33
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The LOS exploit vs Morgoth bothers me. On one hand this allows "too weak" characters to win wich should be rewarded. Otoh, it may block the ones who will not go that way (unless rocketband) if there is such a win in a competition
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Old June 14, 2022, 18:00   #34
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The LOS exploit vs Morgoth bothers me. On one hand this allows "too weak" characters to win wich should be rewarded. Otoh, it may block the ones who will not go that way (unless rocketband) if there is such a win in a competition
More generally speaking, what's the difference between an exploit and skill?
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Old June 14, 2022, 18:38   #35
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I don't think there's a meaningful way to compare across different codes of conduct / different sets of birth options.

Within one code of conduct / set of birth options, sort by Deepest Unique Killed, and break ties with Turn Count.

That way, a winner beats a non-winner, and winners are sorted by speed.

...

Or is the idea to set up a global ranking scheme within V where you can compare across birth options / conducts and get a single number as output? Like, an "objective" measure of whether it's more impressive to grind slowly and beat Morgoth as an ironman bookless mage or dive quickly and beat Sauron with no artifacts but die to Morgoth? Seems dicey, but I guess some people would have fun trying to maximize score.
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Old June 14, 2022, 18:44   #36
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Originally Posted by Djabanete View Post
Or is the idea to set up a global ranking scheme within V where you can compare across birth options / races / classes and get a single number as output? Like, an "objective" measure of whether it's more impressive to grind slowly and beat Morgoth as an ironman bookless mage or dive quickly and beat Sauron with no artifacts but die to Morgoth? Seems dicey, but I guess some people would have fun trying to maximize score.
My suggestion was directed to tangar, as he was asking about some new ideas for his variant.
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Old June 20, 2022, 19:53   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tangar View Post
IMHO score should define not the grind, not the luck, but your skill. getting OP items by luck or by grinding lvls is meh... while killing Morgy when you wear rugs - is skill
i know where you are coming from but this is, unfortunately, a false logic. The idea that A is a better player than B because they killed Morgoth with a store-bough shovel.

Sure you can parade around your winning character with 250hp but are forgetting to include all the hundreds of failures that came before. That is no different than another player grinding out the items they need.
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Old June 21, 2022, 12:17   #38
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i know where you are coming from but this is, unfortunately, a false logic. The idea that A is a better player than B because they killed Morgoth with a store-bough shovel.

Sure you can parade around your winning character with 250hp but are forgetting to include all the hundreds of failures that came before. That is no different than another player grinding out the items they need.
The skill is actually to do it with minimal attempts. "Hundreds of failures" approach is the way similar to "grinding out the items".

Not sure that you really know where I am coming from. My vision on such matters came from different places, eg from Nethack tournaments. Nethack pro-players have very high success rate to win the game and it was proffed during such tournaments numerous times. The same goes to any classic roguelike games - in time player 'learn' how to play by skill, not by the time which he spends on grinding. Thats why in Tangaria I've simply disabled cheezing ways to stair-scum, grind low lvls and other boring grind.
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